I am not a "shovel pruner". As long as a plant is trying to live, I try to keep it alive. It is part of my personality/garden philosophy. However, there are certain plants that I am tempted to remove, or move to a different place in the garden...

The most disappointing rose in my collection is "rountuit", a Moore rose. It seems to grow horizontally, except for one huge cane sticking straight up. I am tempted to cut it, but it is much thicker than the other canes. Maybe the rose will improve with time. I can't comment on the flowers, because it hasn't bloomed, yet. At the moment, its form resembles an obscene gesture. Could be partially from the crabgrass that is sprouting thru the prickly, prone canes. Maybe it doesn't like the heat or the growing conditions or something. I don't think I over fertilized, especially since I just watered it during the heat wave.

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose...

A quote from an article quoted in hmf "Rountuit Hybrid Rugosa... a Miniature x Rugosa cross having small blue-green foliage and very double rose-pink flowers in clusters... It needs so little attention that it has been called "the lazy man's rose." Mr. Moore recommends fertilizing it sparingly, trimming it if and when you get around to it! "

I'll read more about rugosas. Maybe I am doing something wrong. My Jens Munk rugosa is suffering in the heat as well. At least I think it is the heat....The foliage on my hybrid teas looks better than the rugosas. Maybe it is something else. Last fall, Jens was the first to drop its leaves, but the first to bloom this spring. It hasn't grown much. I put it in the back of the flower bed thinking it would get big since it is "a vigorous grower". Not yet, but this is its first full year, maybe it is vigorously growing roots.

My spellchecker suggested changing rugosa to Yugoslav....I refrained. The rose "rountuit" is correctly spelled, although I keep wanting to write "roundtuit". I remember the pastor putting one in the church bulletin, TUIT printed in a circle, and giving a seventies style sermon about "getting around to" things. I think he was speaking about tithing, my mother tried to blackmail me into doing more housework, as if obsessive compulsive cleaning disorder was spiritually enlightened. What was I thinking with this rose....

What a great topic for a thread. I'm also not a "shovel pruner." For years, the gophers were eating about one-fourth of all the roses I planted, so I zealously protected anything that escaped their jaws. Now I use gopher cages and I'm subconsciously "shovel pruning" certain roses by deciding they're not worthy of a cage.

The only rose I can remember digging up and tossing is the Baronne Prevost I got rid of last year. It was easily the ugliest rose bush in my garden. The blooms were pretty, but the bush itself was a magnet for black spot, powdery mildew, rust, and every imaginable pest. The black spot wasn't such a surprise because it runs rampant through my whole garden, but powdery mildew is something strictly reserved for old ramblers and Baronne Prevost, and rust is something reserved exclusively for Baronne Prevost.

Anyway, I dug it up and threw it away, but guess what... It's back. I must have left part of the root in, because it's coming back. So far, I've decided to let it stay. It has survived gophers, rose diseases, pests, and my own murderous assault. That kind of tenacity has to be appreciated and rewarded.

Maybe I'll just douse it with heavy chemicals next year -- pesticides, fungicides, etc. I always meant to try that, but I never got "rountuit."

The description of Rountuit says up to 5' tall and 5' wide. Sounds like yours is living up to that: along the ground and straight up. The bloom looks lovely though; it might be worth waiting for.

My Rugosas never have enough leaves but they flower absolutely constantly so I can't get too upset with them. None of my Hybrid Teas have many leaves now either. When I have an unproductive or nearly dead rose I leave it to take its chances but plant another rose almost on top of it. The result is usually both grow wildly and look ridiculous all squashed together. Oh well...

I've also decided to give up on certain roses. I've bought some over and over again from Vintage. They always fail, probably because they simply don't want to grow on their own roots. I used to blame myself, but then a woman contacted me to ask for a cutting from Fantan. She said everyone else's had died, including the one Vintage Gardens had. Mine's still alive, but it's so tiny and so frail and it may never grow big enough to produce anything extra for cuttings. If it does give up the ghost, I won't bother buying another one. The same goes for Victoriana, Tom Brown, Gray Pearl, and a host of other itsy-bitsy, half-dead darlings.

There's something else in your post, Andi, that made me laugh: the idea of obsessive housecleaning as a virtue. For about a year and a half in my life, I had a surgically clean house. That was when I was married to an alcoholic homicidal maniac. I wanted to kill him, but he was more than a foot taller than I and more than 50 pounds heavier, so I killed germs instead. A single fingerprint on the toaster sent me into a cleaning frenzy. I used a toothbrush to clean every bit of grout in the tiled shower room every couple of days. Then I got a divorce and my house was never clean again.

As soon as I was a happy person with a strong sense of security and no feelings of imminent dread, I stopped the daily cleaning. So, a clean house was a sign of neurosis in my case, and a lack of urgency to clean is a sign of mental health.

Yes, I agree! A dirty house is definitely a sign of normalcy to me. There are so many more important things in life.

I'm a big shovel pruner. I have no mercy on poor performing roses! Generally they end up in the our rose society raffle, or donated to a friend, who wants to take a stab at em.

alan

Oh, that's different, Alan. Real shovel pruners are the ones that pitch disappointing roses straight into the trash. That's the mentality we're disclaiming.

I've never really shovel pruned one that wasn't healthy. I mean, they almost never die on you, and generally if they do it's at the bareroot stage, not once they are established. My garden is older now, and I have some that have failed. A friend once told me that most roses only live 10 years in our hot desert climate. I have had the house for 19 years. I've been growing roses almost as long. I've only had 4 fail after 10 years, crash and burn. That was climbing Sunsprite and Spectra. Both of these were on arbors, one of the same plant on each side. I think once the canes reached the top, and they were going more horizontal, the sun would stress and burn the canes, and then over a period of time they slowly start dieing back. I think our heat is too much for them, and they just cannot get enough water in our super dry desert climate to live much longer than 10 years. All my non-climbers still thrive to this day. I do have some climbers that have made it over 10 years, but they are in places where they get morning sun and afternoon shade/dappled light. I'm thinking that's the only reason they have survived and remained health. They don't have that intense HOT desert sun beating down on them all day long. So, I have shovel pruned and discarded 4 roses. They were dead when I did. Climbing Sunsprite and Spectra.

I have started an experiment. I'm trying one aggressive climber (Ralph's Creeper) on one side of an arbor, and Climbing Autumn Sunset on the other side of the arbor. I want to see if the aggressive Rangoon Creeper helps to shade the rose canes at the top of the arbor, and allow the rose to live longer and co-exist together.

Alan

I understand giving away plants that you don't want or that need thinning out. I have gotten quite a few plants that way and share hostas, seeds, etc with friends and neighbors. I don't kill plants just because they are less than perfect or I want new ones. Gardening teaches me that life is beyond my control. I am learning to accept surprises and imperfections in myself and the world around me. Gardening is relaxing and spiritual for me. Everyone has their own way, shovel prune if that is your thing.

I moved a few roses this year and still need to move a few minis. It is a challenge to dig holes here because of the rocks, etc. One can dig a big enough hole, fill it with water and have it still full the next day! In that case, there is a big rock or lots of little rocks and clay blocking the drainage. A back injury limits my ability to do heavy work, but friends help me sometimes. At the moment, I have the half dug holes marked, time for another "move the rocks" bbq. I suspect the drainage issues and spring-thaw cycle are the reasons that I have had problems with grafted roses. Many neighbors have also had problems. The exception is people with their roses in raised beds filled with improted soil/mix.

Anyway, I am thinking of swapping William Shakespeare 2000 with rountuit in the fall or spring. Spring would probably be best. At the moment, I have the large cane staked so that it doesn't fall into my Tiffany hybrid tea. My rose bed is in front of the building facing south, so the roses tend to lean forward. Rountuit and the minis were so small last year that I was afraid they would be lost among the plants at the back of the bed - mostly lilies and errant morning glories. The peonies near rountuit had spread rapidly. I was very surprised. It has less space in its current location than I had planned. Live and learn.

This is my first garden, so it has been a learning experience. I am still glad that any rose survives after my "body bag" dead sticks.

I like my place clean, but not crazy clean. I sew and knit and have numerous sewing and knitting machines and works in progress. I don't have a separate "studio space". Not to mention all of the books. At some point, I will move into a larger place, but for now I try to keep things organized and reasonably tidy.

Another rose that I am a bit disappointed with is Belinda's Dream, one of Tiffany's progeny. I have mentioned before that Tiffany is my favorite hybrid tea. I love the bud shape, floral form, color and fragrance. I am keeping my eyes open for relatives. Belinda's Dream has gotten such great reviews and is on lots of "best beginner rose" lists. It is also an "Earth Kind" rose, perhaps it does better in Texas.

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose...

My Belinda is an own root rose planted last year. It grew slowly and didn't bloom last year. This year it had a nice bloom, but still stayed small. When I moved a few roses around earlier this year, this was one that I moved. When I dug it out and carefully examined the plant, I realized that it was three small own root plants. They probably struggled being so close together. It looked like three tiny main canes coming to a v at the ground. I separated them and planted them closer to the front of the bed in a spot perfect for a pink short rose. They are surviving and sending out new leaves.

It is a pretty rose with beautiful flowers. It gets a bit of black spot on its lower leaves, but less than most. My major complaint is that it isn't as robust and prolific as expected. It may do better since I replanted it.

I had the funniest experience with Belinda's Dream this year. Five years ago, Seedpicker in Dave's Garden sent me a tiny rooted cutting of Belinda's Dream. It promptly died, but I never dug it up because there were lots of other things planted around it, so it didn't leave a gaping hole in the landscape.

This year a rose started coming up in the middle of all those other plants. It grew quickly and vigorously and it produced a few blooms. It's Belinda's Dream, unmistakably. I have no idea why it stayed dormant for five years.

I hope your Belinda's Dream thrives with all that attention. I have two and they took a year or so to establish but have grown large and dense and bloom generously.

I have been disappointed with the disease resistance of yellow Austin roses. Charlotte took a while to take off, but it was beautiful this spring. It sends up such tall new canes that one may be able to train it as a climber. I had it planted near Golden Celebration and moved it when I expanded my flower garden. I picked up after one too many dogs one day and extended the flower bed to the sidewalk. I liked to have a margin of grass, but was tired of cleaning and disinfecting the grass daily before starting gardening. It was either remove the grass or install a camera. The hot pink "pick up after your dog" sign in the window hasn't been effective, maybe their owners can't read. It is a town law townhome community requirement that all dogs be leashed and cleaned up after. I can't imagine people wanting to live surrounded by "merde".

Golden Celebration has the worst black spot of any rose in my garden. I am using a strict schedule of Bayer disease control in the main rose bed this year following a two year experiment with natural disease control methods. I am going to be certain to spray while applying winter protection as well this fall. It may take another year for the Bayer to reach its full benefit. I have already seen improvement in black spot and insect damage in my other roses.

I realize that yellow roses are generally more disease prone, so I may have to learn to live with it. They both have nice blooms. I moved some purslane around the foot of GC to hide the defoliation. I was warned that the purslane is an aggressive reseeder but it looks very nice in its location. It is easy to pull out, so I can deal with it if it gets out of hand.

I chose these two yellow roses because Charlotte is reported to be better suited to cold climates than Molineux, which is recommended for warm climates. Golden Celebration is supposedly an improvement over Graham Thomas in both growth habit and disease resistance. They are both vigorous and generous with their blooms. Both have soft, pastel yellow blooms, which I prefer to the more golden color of Graham Thomas for this garden. Both have also survived one winter with little or no cane die off. (Well, Charlotte dropped all of its leaves after I moved it recently because I accidentally snapped a deep root when digging it out. Oops. The roses that I got the entire root ball moved without disruption, but the ones that went "pop" while digging dropped their leaves. Charlotte is recovering rapidly, so I am happy)

Right now, I am definitely not a shovel pruner. Heck, I'm not ANY kind of pruner. Now, I've pulled roses that I just didn't care for and gave them to friends or on Freecycle, but to outright kill something just because I don't like it? I leave that to weeds and aspens. LOL Now, I've shovel-pruned 3 aspen trees (technically, I didn't "shovel-prune", but I removed them because I didn't like them, but long story there), but something as precious as a rose? NEVER! Like Alan, we have a heat problem here in the summer because of the altitude, and, like Andi, I have an extreme cold freeze-thaw-freeze-thaw with the spring. So, I'm ecstatic when any rose survives more than a growing year. That's why I was disappointed in George Burns.. I hated that rose because of the bloodthirst of the canes, but I was super sad when it didn't make it. As far as Austins, I don't have a single one.. I don't think my Molineux made it (again), nor did Fisherman's Friend (again). I'm betting dollars to donuts that both losses are my fault, so I'll try 'em again next year. I haven't had any disease problems this year, my aphid problem was short lived, it's just the heat that's been killing mine. And, if there's any hint of green on the canes, I won't pull 'em (the rose expert at my LGS stated that life's too short, if there's no leaves, yank 'em out, but I give the poor thing the benefit of the doubt). And only when the canes are 100% brown and brittle (I won't pull even if they're purple/black) will I pull.

Which means next weekend (the 21st/22nd), I'll be pulling about 5 more roses out of the ground again. This year has been murder. If I can't get the roses in by June 15th, I'm not putting any into the ground if they're smaller roses. Smaller roses like what I got from Pickering, Roses Unlimited.. they just didn't make it in the back yard due to the extreme heat. Bleh. DH is so mad that I've lost so many this summer, but I told him, what can I do? I can't control the weather...

Sometimes, when I see so many dead roses, I wonder if I should just give up. Grow more xeric plants like hyssops & agastache. Then I sniff Heirloom or Intrigue, or Picante pops open and I get addicted all over again.

As I explained to my DH, this is the cheapest of my established hobbies. You should try keeping saltwater fish when you're 1000+ miles away from the coast.

Wow! You keep salt water fish? I am very impressed. (I share your attitude toward dead/dying roses. They have to be very dead before I take them out.)

PPal - I have downsized my aquariums a LOT in the past year.. I've gone from 14 down to 5 and I'll be tearing one down & selling it probably this week or next weekend. At one time, I had:

1 125gal freshwater African Cichlid
1 75gal Saltwater FOWLR Aggressive
1 72gal bowfront freshwater African Cichlid
1 65gal reef
1 55gal SE. Asian Fresh
1 55gal S. American catfish
1 46gal w/1 fish (Vampire Tetra)
2 29gal reefs
2 29gal fresh
1 16gal guppy
1 12gal saltwater reef
1 5gal fresh
1 5gal reef

I'm down to the 72 African, 65 (being torn down this week, currently freshwater), 46 fresh, a 40gal salt, 29 goldfish, and 16gal guppy. I'll be moving the 46 in the 65's spot and maybe breaking down the 29 and the 16. Not sure yet. But, got tired of how expensive fish are getting, and, when the gas prices shot up like a rocket a couple of years ago, the price of fish tripled (they're flown in from SE Asian/various South Seas islands). When a yellow tang goes from $16.99 to $41.99, I have to figure what is best, especially when the quality went down. That's why I switched to roses.. at least they're easier to take care of.

As far as being back on track, there's not any rose that I wouldn't recommend, other than the bodybag roses. I personally love my hybrid teas, my climbers, everything. I wish that Austrian Copper didn't smell like a dead skunk that's been sitting in the road for a few days, but you can't have everything. I also don't care too much for the bloodthirsty roses, but, I guess that is something that all rose people have to deal with.

What I DON'T recommend is planting roses right next to the road. Especially when salt is being used for de-icing. But, mainly, to keep people from picking all your roses off. And if you have neighbors with small children, explain to them that you don't appreciate the children taking home self-picked bouquets. If they want a bouquet, just ask. Don't yank my roses off, thank you very much.

I haven't had problems with people picking roses, although one woman asked for a few for her mother's grave. Of course, I gave her some. My little neighbor, Tallulah, picked some strawberries, but that is alright. At least I didn't need a bird net, Tallulah and I got the strawberries before the birds found them. She is only 3 and I enjoy her company. I dug out a few strawberry plants for her grandmother's garden. An older Pakastani man watches me water the garden at night. I am not sure if he likes the flowers, the fragrance of nicotania or a sweaty blond in shorts. Whatever.

One year, a different neighbor's kid picked a tulip. I was furious, but they moved. Hurrah! This woman let her children, including toddlers and infants, run wild unsupervised. They came to my place whenever I was outside for someone to talk to. Who knows what the mother was doing inside. She always ran outside nude under a shabby robe. Poor kids, if she were a cat, I would have paid to have her fixed. Cats, however, are better mothers.

It has been hot here, also. Humid also. At least the heat slows down the aphids and Japanese beetles. I am behind with the deadheading, but keep up with watering. A couple roses have slowed down, but all have survived the summer, so far. They are faring better than I am. My viking blood boils in hot weather. So much for warmer zone envy. In spring I want to move south. In summer, I want to move north. I guess I will stay put and stop complaining. The scenery is beautiful here - rocks, black walnut trees, trumpet vines and all. Plus, there are advantages to being reasonably close to NYC.

I bet own root Austin roses would do well for you, skiekitty. Most tolerate the soil here and get thru the winter with little or no winter protection. If you like pinks, I love Wildeve. It is a hybrid musk Austin. So is Charlotte. Marlow may suit your orange color palette, it survived its first winter and came back bigger than expected. I am experimenting with growing some Austins as climbers with clematis on a trellis against a wall. I am still getting the hang of it. I am also trying to pillar a rose for the first time, not an Austin. I have limited space so I have to expand vertically.

Buck's Honey Sweet is a knockout this year. It is on its first flush of blooms. It was the second rose to bloom this season here.

Fire Meilland groundcover rose is also fab. Lots of magenta-red blooms, not quite as red as I expected, but gorgeous nonetheless. The canes are fully winter hardy and long -6' or more! They start upright and fall down. Sometimes I hold them down with a rock if they look odd. The rose doesn't mind. It is in my natural spray garden bed, but has no blackspot at all! Any rose with severe blackspot in that bed has to be moved to the other bed that gets sprayed.

Better get back to painting the kitchen. I have the windows open and the ac off. At least paint dries fast in 90'F weather. Had to stretch and rest my back for a bit. Can't wait to be done with my home improvement projects and have more time for fun things.

Someone's picking your flowers? Count your blessings. Someone has been stealing my plants as soon as I plant them this year, and yesterday the swine graduated from pulling up small annuals to yanking whole rose bushes out of the ground.

I guess I'm really lucky all that happens to my roses is that the cows eat some - my fault for planting them along the fencelines. I thought if I chose extra thorny roses they would be safe, not so, cows seem to find them spicy or something.

Skiekitty, now I am even more impressed, what a display those tanks must have made!

Zuzu - I know I'd be guilty of stealing your roses, heck, if I could get some time off, I'd be on my way to Californie right now! Of course, they'd all promptly croak on me, doncha know. Can you put up a camera system (even the fake cameras) and put in signs stating that you prosecute survivors?