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Plant ID forum: Smallflower Thoroughwort (Eupatorium semiserratum)?

Views: 590, Replies: 15 » Jump to the end
Name: stone
near Macon Georgia (USA) (Zone 8a)
Image
stone
Jul 24, 2013 5:58 AM CST
The thoroughworts seem to be a wide and varied group, but not well documented with online pictures... Can anybody verify?
This jewel looks like a miniature joe pye weed... with a tolerance for dry growing conditions...
 Thumb of 2013-07-24/stone/8da4ee Thumb of 2013-07-24/stone/669de6 Thumb of 2013-07-24/stone/8c2246 Thumb of 2013-07-24/stone/4b049f










Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Identifier
Image
JRsbugs
Jul 24, 2013 9:08 AM CST
Where is it growing stone?

By knowing which area it is in the following site shows which species are growing in that area, there are some photos and line drawings which help but it's a good idea to google for reliable sites to compare.

http://luirig.altervista.org/floranam/eupatorium.htm

If you scroll to the bottom of the link there are some photos and line drawings, the leaf looks to match that of Eupatorium fistulosum.

E. fistulosum isn't in the list, but is a synonym of Eutrochium fistulosum ..

http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl/record/gcc-136430

http://plants.usda.gov/core/profile?symbol=EUFI14

http://plants.usda.gov/core/profile?symbol=EUFI14#

Leave: "margins finely serrate (teeth rounded, blunt)"

http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=1&taxon_id=2...

Name: stone
near Macon Georgia (USA) (Zone 8a)
Image
stone
Jul 24, 2013 9:54 AM CST
JRsbugs said:Where is it growing stone?

the leaf looks to match that of Eupatorium fistulosum.


AKA Joe pye weed...

I collected the seeds in a horse pasture in Macon Georgia because of the floral resemblance to joe pye, which hasn't bloomed reliably in my sandhill garden.

This year isn't the best year for testing plant hardiness due to the amazing rainfall we've lucked into.
But... I did find the plants growing in some very dry conditions...

Joe pye is a tall plant, often growing 8 or 9 feet (or more!)

This plant is short, growing 2 feet (or so), with blooms on some individual plants that are less than a foot in height!

Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Identifier
Image
JRsbugs
Jul 24, 2013 11:37 AM CST
Joe Pye Weed is used for more than one species stone. Height is dependent not only on which species it is, but also on soil, weather conditions and age of plant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eutrochium
Name: Kent Pfeiffer
Southeast Nebraska (Zone 5b)
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator Plant Identifier Region: Nebraska Irises
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages
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KentPfeiffer
Jul 24, 2013 10:20 PM CST

Plants Admin

It's almost certainly Sweetscented Joe-Pye Weed (Eutrochium purpureum). It's the only one of the genus that really tolerates dry conditions well. It also often shows opposite, rather than whorled, leaves.
[Last edited by KentPfeiffer at Jul 25, 2013 6:36 AM CST (+)]
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Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Identifier
Image
JRsbugs
Jul 25, 2013 3:06 AM CST
The leaves on Eutrochium purpureum don't match these Kent, shape and venation are different.

http://plants.usda.gov/java/largeImage?imageID=eupu10_002_av...

Check the shape and venation of Eutrochium fistulosum.

http://plants.usda.gov/java/largeImage?imageID=eufi_004_avd....
[Last edited by JRsbugs at Jul 25, 2013 3:07 AM CST (+)]
Give a thumbs up | Quote | Post #455001 (6)
Name: Kent Pfeiffer
Southeast Nebraska (Zone 5b)
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator Plant Identifier Region: Nebraska Irises
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages
Image
KentPfeiffer
Jul 25, 2013 6:46 AM CST

Plants Admin

In addition to seeing it in the wild on a regular basis, I grow Eutrochium purpureum in my garden and can assure you that the leaves match stone's pictures quite well. Smiling

Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Identifier
Image
JRsbugs
Jul 25, 2013 7:15 AM CST
How certain are you that your plants are correctly named Kent?

Eutrochium purpureum : "margins coarsely serrate"

http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=1&taxon_id=2...

For a live example of coarsely serrate, see Coreopsis latifolia leaves near the bottom ..

http://www.namethatplant.net/gallery/gallery_glossary.shtml?...

E. purpureum leaves:

http://www.namethatplant.net/gallery_comparison.shtml?compar...

Eutrochium fistulosum: " finely serrate (teeth rounded, blunt)"

http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=1&taxon_id=2...

The teeth on these plants are definitely rounded and blunt.

The leaf margins do match the line drawings, however it might be another species altogether! Hilarious! The examples shown on the Carolinas & Georgia site don't match E. fistulosum, assuming they are correct.

More examples ..

http://gobotany.newenglandwild.org/species/eutrochium/purpur...

http://gobotany.newenglandwild.org/species/eutrochium/fistul...

Name: Kent Pfeiffer
Southeast Nebraska (Zone 5b)
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator Plant Identifier Region: Nebraska Irises
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages
Image
KentPfeiffer
Jul 25, 2013 7:40 AM CST

Plants Admin

Completely certain. My friend Gerry Steinauer, the state botanist for Nebraska, originally confirmed the ID for me. It's a fairly common plant in dry upland woods in southeast Nebraska. As you move eastwards across the across the continent (and get higher rainfall levels), it is more likely to occur in open habitats but is still mostly an upland plant.

The other Eutrochiums are primarily wetland plants and, although they can be grown under mesic conditions, they don't tolerate dryness well at all.

Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Identifier
Image
JRsbugs
Jul 25, 2013 8:47 AM CST
Can you post photos of your plants Kent? Are the leaf margin teeth blunt and rounded like in these photos?

stone collected the seeds elsewhere, it would be interesting to know what type of land that was. Plants which typically grow in a certain habitat can grow in others, sometimes not so well.

collected the seeds in a horse pasture in Macon Georgia
Name: Kent Pfeiffer
Southeast Nebraska (Zone 5b)
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator Plant Identifier Region: Nebraska Irises
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages
Image
KentPfeiffer
Jul 25, 2013 9:55 AM CST

Plants Admin

I could if I was at home, but I'm about 500 miles away at the moment. I'll could post a picture by Sunday, if necessary.
Name: stone
near Macon Georgia (USA) (Zone 8a)
Image
stone
Jul 26, 2013 7:16 AM CST
KentPfeiffer said:It's almost certainly Sweetscented Joe-Pye Weed (Eutrochium purpureum). It's the only one of the genus that really tolerates dry conditions well. It also often shows opposite, rather than whorled, leaves.

The opposite leaves, rather than whorled is something that I would like to be finding pictures of for comparison...
If it's another joe pye... Yay...

Re: horse pasture... It was in a bit of shade... Down here, everybody constantly, compulsively mows, and the only cool stuff left is under the trees where they can't get the tractor... If they didn't spray round-up on all of it...

Appreciate the help!
Name: Kent Pfeiffer
Southeast Nebraska (Zone 5b)
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator Plant Identifier Region: Nebraska Irises
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages
Image
KentPfeiffer
Jul 27, 2013 2:44 PM CST

Plants Admin

Eutrochium purpureum is "supposed" to have whorled leaves with 4 or 5 leaves per node, but in reality there can be anything from 2 to 5. First year plants, in particular, often have just a pair of leaves at each node. These first year plants commonly bloom, even if they only get a foot or so tall. This young plant had its top nipped off, but you can see the leaf arrangement clearly enough:

Thumb of 2013-07-27/KentPfeiffer/d9d990

Mature plants are typically 3 to 8 feet tall with leaves in whorls of 3 to 5. The flowers of the plants from this area tend to be very pale, just a hint of pink at peak bloom. They still strongly attract butterflies, though, in spite of their rather dull color. However, the flowers can be much brighter in other parts of its range.
Thumb of 2013-07-27/KentPfeiffer/0b6bf6
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Identifier
Image
JRsbugs
Jul 27, 2013 3:56 PM CST
It certainly does look like your plants Kent! Interesting though the leaves seem to vary a good deal, some with sharp teeth and others with blunt teeth. Looking closely at stone's photos you can see there is a similar variation, I wonder if there has been natural crossing of species?

An interesting article ..

http://www.bio.utk.edu/schilling/Danielweb/eup/genera/eupato...

Thanks for posting those. Smiling
Name: Kent Pfeiffer
Southeast Nebraska (Zone 5b)
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator Plant Identifier Region: Nebraska Irises
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages
Image
KentPfeiffer
Jul 28, 2013 2:34 PM CST

Plants Admin

It's certainly not unusual for plants to be able to interbreed with other species within their genus. But, I sort of doubt that is the case with these plants. The nearest populations of other species of Euotrichum are at least a hundred miles away from where I collected the E. purpureum seed. I'd guess it's just a species with a high degree of variability. Shrug!
Name: stone
near Macon Georgia (USA) (Zone 8a)
Image
stone
Jul 30, 2013 8:23 AM CST
KentPfeiffer said:Eutrochium purpureum is "supposed" to have whorled leaves with 4 or 5 leaves per node, but in reality there can be anything from 2 to 5. First year plants, in particular, often have just a pair of leaves at each node. These first year plants commonly bloom, even if they only get a foot or so tall.


Thnx... I nwent back to the horse pasture yesterday... spotted this pair of plants, one has opposite leaves, while the other has a 3 leaf whorl.
Thumb of 2013-07-30/stone/4c08ba

close-up of 3-leaf whorl...
Thumb of 2013-07-30/stone/0a719e

flowers....


Even a 4-leaf whorl...
Thumb of 2013-07-30/stone/b29984

So... Why isn't this feature easier to find in a google search?

I did eventually find this information at "name that plant dot net" after I knew what name to search... b4 that... nothing.
http://www.namethatplant.net/plantdetail.shtml?plant=554

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