dyzzypyxxy said:Yep, there's a reason why roses are sold as grafted plants, Keith. The rootstocks are chosen for various good traits like hardiness and pest/disease resistance, then the varieties with great flower qualities are grafted on those stout rootstocks.
Your die-offs were very likely disease, but they'd be diseases that grafted roses might be resistant to. If you want to 'grow your own' roses, you'd be best to start with cuttings from what are known as 'own root' roses like the Knock-out series of landscape roses.
RoseBlush1 said:Keith .. to answer your original question "Could it be these were just genetically weak and the die offs were natural, not disease?"
The answer is "Yes"
It all depends upon how the genes of the seed parent and the pollen parent combine to create a new plant. Historically, less than one percent of rose seeds produce a viable plant. Large breeding operations will sow tens of thousands of seeds and only a very small percentage will produce plants that may be brought forward for testing. Many of those plants will not survive the second year, so the percentage of that initial crop gets even smaller. Of those survivors, many of the new roses will be weak plants or will not produce the desired results of the breeder. If open pollenated, the rose seeds may never produce a good rose.
However, if you view the history of roses, early breeders planted roses near each other hoping that a wondering bee would carry pollen to a rose where the genetics were such that the seeds produced "could" produce a viable rose.
Again, it was a matter of numbers. They planted as many seeds as possible to up their chances of creating a new rose.
zuzu said:There are a couple of misconceptions here that should be cleared up. Own-root roses really have nothing to do with Knock Out roses, although it's true that Knock Out roses do grow well on their own roots. An own-root rose is any rose that's grown on its own roots instead of being grafted. Keith's seedlings are own-root roses.
Grafting doesn't make plants hardier or more disease/pest-resistant. The rootstock might be hardier or more resistant, but the rose itself will retain its innate qualities. This is the reason that the Dr. Huey rootstock is more likely to take over in colder zones. It can be hardier than the rose that's been grafted onto it. Grafting can and does add vigor to most roses, and this is the reason that so many roses were always grafted until recently. Many hybrid teas, for instance, will not grow well on their own roots because they aren't vigorous enough to grow large and to produce many blooms.
hampartsum said:Hello Zuzu, I'm considering propagating new plants from some of my old rose bushes ( 25 year old) that I will have to replant somewhere else, because the area has to be cleared for the expansion of our greenhouses. Last fall I took dormant cuttings from a a rootstock bush and was successful with just a few cuttings. Reading different sources, it would seen adequate that now I should try budding during this summer ( it's summer now) or also try stenting ( that is take cuttings of rootstock and also scions to graft onto all in one stage) ¿ does anyone have suggestions of what is best and if the season chosen is appropriate? I look forward greatly in acquiring the art of grafting roses so it is also something new to learn and am willing to patiently wait the necessary failures until I become profficient in the art. Thank you. Arturo
hampartsum said:Hello Zuzu, I'm considering propagating new plants from some of my old rose bushes ( 25 year old) that I will have to replant somewhere else, because the area has to be cleared for the expansion of our greenhouses. Last fall I took dormant cuttings from a a rootstock bush and was successful with just a few cuttings. Reading different sources, it would seen adequate that now I should try budding during this summer ( it's summer now) or also try stenting ( that is take cuttings of rootstock and also scions to graft onto all in one stage) ¿ does anyone have suggestions of what is best and if the season chosen is appropriate? I look forward greatly in acquiring the art of grafting roses so it is also something new to learn and am willing to patiently wait the necessary failures until I become profficient in the art. Thank you. Arturo
keithp2012 said:Last year I grew about 12 roses from seed, they were healthy and vigorous.
Spring is here and most look great, but a few have died or look very bad. They are all in the same area with same soil light and water. Could it be these were just genetically weak and the die offs were natural, not disease?
roseseek said:
Keith, if you've only lost a few seedlings out of twelve, you are probably experiencing much better results than many. The vast majority of rose seedlings simply aren't good plants. Some don't develop good root systems. Some have genetic susceptibilities to fungal issues. Some aren't good at photosynthesizing the quantities of food they demand. I've routinely seen that the healthiest, most vigorous seedlings are those which generate the heaviest, most expansive root systems. Even those can exhibit disease issues to the various disease types. It can be quite interesting and educational to "autopsy" the dead seedlings. Carefully remove them from the soil, trying to retain as many of the roots as possible. You may find the weaker ones have virtually no fibrous feeder roots while those you transplant to grow on have massive, fibrous root systems. Much of what you see above ground, is determined by what we seldom see going on below the soil surface. When you start exploring what you can't usually see, lights will start turning on and dots start connecting and things make a whole lot more intuitive sense. I think you'll enjoy it. Good luck!