I found some literature from the University of Kansas that recommends dividing peonies during the fall of year two. I believe that the reasoning is that the young roots are easier to divide and less time/energy is wasted creating a large root ball.

I'd be curious to know if anyone has attempted a 2nd year division and how well (divisions, plant viability) things turned out.

Thanks!

I've only ever heard of three year divisions, on year to settle in and two years to accumulate self growth. Would be curious what kind of division you'd have after year two. You'll have to let us know if you try it.

For some peonies it make sense to divide earlier and wait extra year after division to have a nice clump. I have regrets that I did not divide all of peonies when I was receiving them from sellers given a chance. My Alexander Woollcott had only 4 flowers (planted in fall 2017) and I probably would have 2 4-flower plants in 2020 if I did it. Now I am scratching my head and thinking what I should divide first among those that I want extra divisions from. Last year I divided Etched Salmon with a lot of tiny ones that will take 4-5 years to become a nice clumps and Red Charm is more vigorous, so probably no need to do it earlier. OF comes to mind for earlier division and all weird-rooted peonies as well a-la ES, etc.

I did not do it myself, but see nothing wrong, especially if the original root was not tiny. My HB 2017 root was huge, so after dividing it in 2 halves right away I certainly could divide it this fall. In fact, I am thinking about it.

magnolialover said:I've only ever heard of three year divisions, on year to settle in and two years to accumulate self growth. Would be curious what kind of division you'd have after year two. You'll have to let us know if you try it.

I intend to try if the plants are growing well. This is what I am using as framework:

https://www.bookstore.ksre.ksu...

' Young roots are straighter, smoother and easier to cut evenly. Two-year stock is best, although three-year stock may also be divided.'

I will be sure to post as I proceed. I am planting 84 peonies this fall and hope to plant at least 60 in 2020 and 2021 IF this first group does well. The distant goal is to arrive at ~1250 plants primarily through division around the time that I retire (roughly a decade). I hope to sell cut flowers while waiting for my wife to join me in retirement (she is 7 years my junior).

Anyhow, there is only one of me and dealing with a lot of smaller, shallower root balls that divide easily sounds like the ticket. I've been amazed at the size of some of the root structures that members here have unearthed!

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Very interesting information, Top.
I hope @lizbest chimes in, because I recall her saying that she does divide large divisions from her bare root orders.

Good for you for planning this far ahead for a fun retirement. 👏🏻

Mieko2 said:
Good for you for planning this far ahead for a fun retirement. 👏🏻

Yeah, this spring I looked up and finally saw the light at the end of the employment tunnel. It has had me reviewing and reconsidering my retirement plan. I have 10 acres on a gravel road, 6 of which are wooded. My original plan had been to spend parts of my days 'parkifying' those 6 acres, which I will still do, but fitting peonies into the mix really sounded better for me. Beyond earning some extra income, going to a farmer's market will be good for me at a lot of other levels.

Another consideration - and it is a simple one that peonies can deliver - is that the bulk of the heavy, more difficult work I can accomplish while I am still physically able and then continue to reap the benefits as I gradually become a bit less capable. It is also not a bad choice if you want to travel during the summer

You're right, LG—I typically divide any really large roots that I get before planting. I don't divide super small though, just down to 3 eye divisions since those seem to do the best here, the larger ones don't perform any better than the 3-5 eye ones for me so it's kinda' wasteful planting them that way! Sorry I've been so absent lately! Every single spring my schedule gets crazy busy, every year I swear it won't be that way the next year but it always is. I swear I don't think I've gotten an entire weekend free to work in the garden at all this spring, or at least not when the weather was nice enough to do so. We had a blizzard here the Monday after returning from the APS convention and then crazy cold nights for the next month, not the best bloom year for me but I do have some pics to post, hopefully soon.

I got a Garden Treasure Itoh that had 7 eyes - but they were all small and tightly clustered with no clear point of division, so I let it be. But I was _really_ tempted.

I'm not quite sure how "dividing' such a rather young root, "benefits" it, by so called "preventing" it "from wasting time/energy making a larger root ball."
As, I don't think they enjoy having their roots disturbed... Unless they've actually become, so over crowded, they need division. .
I rather liked, having huge "bushes" or the appearance of an older established clump, "just loaded with blooms" ! Compared to just several stems & a "couple blooms," on it ..
I used to let them get so large, they'd have to begin to show signs of deterioration first, before ever dividing them...

I would tend to think, it is actually going to take longer, to recover from the disturbance, & I'd think, unless done perfectly, without damaging any of the brittle roots... But, even so, the more "mass" a plant has, the quicker & faster rate, it can grow ! Isn't that why, it usually takes over a year (& usually two, or even up to three,), before a new plant, may ever "bloom" the first time around ?
I don't think I ever received a truly 5 eyed root, in all the years I bought them.)

I can recall, a neighbor, (about 40 years ago) that had a couple of huge specimens & suddenly noticed, one spring, they weren't in bloom any more.

I wondered what happened to them all. Then I realized, they'd divided them up & attempted to make at least a good 30 or 40 foot long ',"hedge row ", out of them & didn't see but a single flower, or two, that very next spring.
It must have taken over 5 years, before that ever looked right & had filled in adequately enough, to have ever started to begin to flower, more like a "solid hedge" of blooms. Of course it looked fantastic, after that many years, but it sure did take a long time, for it to ever appear anything nearly proper.

From the pdf of Kansas Sate University, Agricultural Experimental Station & Cooperative Extension Service. & I quote, directly from it, a couple of statements... "Peonies are long lived & perform best when left undisturbed " ( Unless there is a good reason, otherwise, for doing so.)
Also stated ;"It takes them several years after dividing and replanting, for peony to return to a desirable size and flower display.' None of that information, would appear to suggest "dividing in the second year" being even remotely ", beneficial".
Easier , for gardener ? Yeah.
Better, benefits to the peonies ? I seriously doubt it.
In fact, it seems, your "suggestion to divide", so often, directly contradicts, the information,, provided from Kansas Sate University (& including Ag. Exp.Co-op, Ext. Services), & this information, fits very well, with my knowledge & over thirty years experience, of having grown peonies, especially regarding herbaceous varieties...

I would also keep in mind, that by "harvesting" your peony stems, ( to be of much of any "value" as a "cut flower", ) would require cutting off, nearly at the base.
Once you've done that, ( & especially, repeatedly) the peony suffers a loss, by reduction of photosynthesis ability, from all those leaves, along that stem, for each & every one that you "cut" & harvested..
By repeatedly, continuing harvesting activity, you just may notice over time, that if performed often enough, will, actually cause a reduction of that peony's ability of the plant, to 'recover" from that process & over the years, will likely show that, as a result, those peonies will actually perform less well & could actually deteriorate. If I ever "cut flower stems", it was only a few here & there from many plants, & so few, it was barely noticeable.
In the meanwhile, by dividing so often to try & meet your goals, if there is ever any "drought" of prolonged time span, you'd better hope it doesn't occur while you are on summer vacation ! Due to loss of shade, at the roots, which a "bush", can more easily tolerate, while a "couple of stems", sure doesn't provide much shade, at the roots, to keep the sun off & shade them, naturally keeping them cooler, at the roots, & drying out faster...especially in southern areas of the U.S.
In case of drought, those "little divisions' may suffer greatly, without any additional irrigation, in particular, if coincidently, the temperatures rise, above normal, for any length of time, without any additional watering, to compensate..

How many acres, did you state that you may need to dig, to plant all of them ? If you follow the link article...between , at least a minimum of (one foot deep, at bare minimum,) to three feet deep , for each peony, in order to attain even better, growth ? (Not forgetting, to mention, the width, of each hole.)
I suppose, if you did 50 in spring, & 50 in every autumn, it wouldn't tire you out, too much, as opposed to 100 each fall. & get them planted, mulched & watered...But, if you plan on 100 each year, so you may reach a thousand in ten years time, will you still feel like digging those holes & be ready to still "divide them & replant", in ten years time from now, so you may double that amount ? You may be ready, able, & willing to do it all now, but what about in ten years time, later, on?

Oh, did I forget to mention, in hot & humid climates, they can be prone to blossom blight, Botrytis, or tend to get powdery mildew problems, if too rainy, etc.. I really do wish you good luck, on your project idea, but all I'm trying to say, is, that it just may not be so easy, as simply "dividing peonies" in your thoughts & all the work, involved, such as bending to "cut flowers" when they bloom ( don't dare get ill, at that time !) plus remove all the foliage each autumn, also.
I don't want to discourage you , too much..But, what I'm saying is, , it really involves, quite a bit of work, when you'd want to retire !

Shawn -

First, thank you for the lengthy response, you've given me a lot of observations, cautions, and advice and I appreciate it!

My retirement goal is to not rust out, to stay busy and happy doing things that I enjoy.

There is a ton of work in just harvesting flowers. Cool water to place the stems, a brief cooling period, preparation, sorting, packaging, storing in a cooler. Then they have to go to market, however that shapes up. However, I still feel like this is physically easier than creating a peony bed.

I am buying 60 plants a year for 3 years. I am going this route so I can decide if I really can and want to do this. If the peonies are too small to divide into 3 divisions with at least 3 eyes, they will get another year to grow. My outline of a plan maps out to having all my plants at 5 years old in 2030, but is mapped out to 2033 to handle any cultivars than need more time, bad years, or a slower growth rate than expected.

The thing that I am mentally struggling with at the moment is the harvest. Flower-suitable peonies all bloom in a 3-week period with most of it happening in a 2-week window. There is no point in planting more than I can harvest. Deadheading and planning will make this all a lot easier, but I don't know how much I can gather in a daily window of 3 hours.

As for summer vacations, I currently have family that lives within a mile that would/could water thirsty plants. I'd plan it out, for sure.

Dealing with mold, pests and other problems will be something that I will have to learn. Sunburn seems to be the only thing that bothers my existing peonies (and that becomes less noticeable as the peonies age). Everything that I am growing is and will be on 3-4 degree grade with excellent drainage, full sun, and fairly friendly clay soil so hopefully I can avoid a few of the common problems related to dampness and mold.

Acres... I am pretty sure that I won't even use 1/3 of an acre for this project. A lot of fairly productive perennial sellers run on 10 acres or less. The really big guys tend to be around 200-250 acres.

Thanks again,

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Not necessarily focused on this specific topic, but an interesting read nevertheless....

https://conservancy.umn.edu/bi...

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In reference to dividing peonies, I found that over a period of say 30 years, it was beneficial to divide the clumps after 5-7 years or so. Mine always began as thriving plants then slowly quit increasing stems. It seemed they reached a point whereby the older roots died and decayed and the newer roots produced approximately the same number of stems. No quick formula for timing, just observation. The divisions enjoyed new soil and did very well. There was some information from professionals stating one should always limit the number of eyes on divisions. I would always trim extras off down to 3 or 4. It seems the transplanted roots cannot feed an excessive number of eyes since all the energy for the coming year is contained in the present roots. For very scarce peonies such as fern leafs etc., dividing the originals on a regular basis is an excellent way to build up a collection. Just be careful in taking into consideration the quality of the location as far as well-drained soil, freedom from encroaching tree roots, and full sunlight.

You might also want to consider, that the article you had first linked to, was for Kansas & conditions, in Missouri, may be quite different, than there. If anything, & you do have great success, you'd possibly do better off, having a Peony farm, if conditions are good for growing most nearly all varieties. I have no idea how far north you are in the State, but tree peonies, may not do as well, in lengthy hot summers, compared to possibly growing 'Itoh' types, or "Intersectionals"
I'm not suggesting, you are going to "rust away", but one never knows what health problems, may occur in the future, ten years from now, as we can't very well predict the state of our own health, that far in advance & people tend to take their health for granted, that we will always enjoy good health...

The point I'd intended to try & make about "harvesting'"peony flowers, is that, you can only harvest, but so many, from each "root", without causing the plant to deteriorate, regardless, of your, rather short, "window of opportunity."

But as Jerry has pointed out, that through experience, found it was best to divide, every 5 to 7 years, in those specific growing conditions, in Illinois. (Or at least, in the thirty years experience), with how to "best" divide" them...Then , not only that, but would actually, "reduce the number of eyes, per division", which greatly reduces, your rate ,of "thinking' how quickly multiplication rate , would best be achieved, by comparison...

As for the "dampness & mold", it is the humidity, in the air & temperatures, not just that of the soil, you'd want to consider, also, as that can or may cause problems, with flower bud development & if they'd "turned brown" & died, you'd have much diminished "cut flower" production, to harvest, than one might expect, due to variations in climate, especially these days... ( I was sowing Zinnia seeds,' in situ', months in advance, this spring, just to give you "some idea"!)

There are many variables to consider, but at very least, you'd end up with quite a collection of peonies & ought to try & first find out, which ones perform best, in your area, from all those "big time growers' for suggestions & good advice, including, possibly including joining the A.P. Society, as other members near you, know more about what to "expect" growing them in your area, & any possible previous problems & how to deal with them, prior to happening, & in some cases, preventing them. T
To improve your chances, of success rate.

Oldgardenrose said:There was some information from professionals stating one should always limit the number of eyes on divisions. I would always trim extras off down to 3 or 4. It seems the transplanted roots cannot feed an excessive number of eyes since all the energy for the coming year is contained in the present roots.

That makes very good sense and I appreciate you sharing that information.

Earlier today, I read an academic paper that suggested that you could encourage stem production by denying sunlight for 10-14 days - something that you would do just after the stems crested. I had not really considered the concept of the roots acting as a fuel reserve and that they could be asked to sustain too much vegetation.

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ShawnSteve said:You might also want to consider, that the article you had first linked to, was for Kansas & conditions, in Missouri, may be quite different, than there.

It is hotter here and probably a bit more humid. I would wager that peonies here would be a bit more prone toward heat and moisture related problems.

ShawnSteve said: I'm not suggesting, you are going to "rust away", but one never knows what health problems, may occur in the future, ten years from now...

We can only act like we're going to live forever. I built my home 15 years ago and I made it wheel-chair friendly. I am taking fairly good care of myself - and my wife does does a good job of poking me when I lose focus of that.

ShawnSteve said:The point I'd intended to try & make about "harvesting'"peony flowers, is that, you can only harvest, but so many, from each "root", without causing the plant to deteriorate, regardless, of your, rather short, "window of opportunity."

My flower production estimates are all based on taking less than 50% of the available stems. I also took the lower end of the per plant bud numbers (18 to 25 was the range that I seem to recall for a 5 year old plant) because I wanted to have conservative estimates. I appreciate that you trying to make sure that I don't damage my plants - I get it.

ShawnSteve said:There are many variables to consider, but at very least, you'd end up with quite a collection of peonies & ought to try & first find out, which ones perform best, in your area, from all those "big time growers' for suggestions & good advice, including, possibly including joining the A.P. Society, as other members near you, know more about what to "expect" growing them in your area....

The first thing that I did was to join the APS. I later joined a regional peony society. I hope to attend a couple of fall functions with the latter - and start to network with other enthusiasts.

The herbaceous peonies that I purchased are coming from Iowa. The seller is about a 3 hour drive from my home and I am going to drive there to collect them shortly after they are harvested. My wife insisted that I find a fairly local source because she didn't want me to end up with a plant that was unhappy in my environment. It seemed like solid advice then and still looks good now.

I also have itohs coming, indirectly, originating from Holland. I picked up a pair of itohs from the same company very late this spring (I know, spring is not the ideal time to plant) and they are doing extremely well - a lot better than I had hoped, really. It was a test run for this fall and I ended up purchasing a dozen of two cultivars (24 intersectional peonies).

The itohs may be an expensive misfire. I say that because they aren't noted for cut flower production and I have no idea if they produce straight stems or lasting flowers. I bought more with my heart than my head, I guess. The worst case scenario is that I have a bunch of lovely itohs to enjoy. There is a part of me grumbling about never having masses of peonies flowering for the joy of it and I think that itohs will help me out a lot in that regard.

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The website by Lindsay D'Aoust, from Canada, had one of the best tutorials for digging and dividing peonies, as I recall. She has since retired and the original website is closed.