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Avatar for Aeonium2003
May 10, 2022 12:26 PM CST
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Sedum nussbaumerianum is an invalid name. The species was first published as adolphi, before nussbaumerianum. Therefore, I suggest that the nussbaumerianum in the database be correctly re-named as adolphi. I understand that the database uses COL as its reference, but it appears to be outdate, or incorrect, as adolphi is the accepted name, while nussbaumerianum is invalid.

Adolphi was first described by Raymond-Hamet in 1912.
However, nussbaumerianum was described by Friedrich August Georg Bitter in 1924.

Therfore adolphi should have priority over nussbaumerianum.
@sedumzz @valleylynn
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May 10, 2022 12:36 PM CST
Name: Lin Vosbury
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I think garden.org uses the Catalogue of Life as reference and the CoL shows nussbaumerianum as the accepted species name with the information: Published in Bitter. (1923). In: Notizbl. Bot. Gart. Berlin, 8: 281. They list adolphi as a synonym.

https://www.catalogueoflife.or...
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Last edited by plantladylin May 10, 2022 12:43 PM Icon for preview
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May 10, 2022 1:25 PM CST
Name: Lynn
Oregon City, OR (Zone 8b)
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@zuzu

S. adolphi.-Hamet. (1912). In: Notizbl. Bot. Gart. Berlin, 5: 277.

Reclassified: Bitter. (1923). In: Notizbl. Bot. Gart. Berlin, 8: 281.
Avatar for scvirginia
May 10, 2022 2:26 PM CST
Name: Virginia

Looking at the original publication of S. Nussbaumerianum, you can read (Google Translate is helpful for those of us not fluent in German) Bitter's description published in February 1923.
https://www.biodiversitylibrar...

On p. 283, you can see that Bitter did wonder about the association with Hamet's S. adolphi, but he notes that Hamet's description is incomplete—giving, for example, no info about the color of the leaves and flowers—and in some cases his description does not fit Bitter's plant. I'm not sure how much I can rely on Google Translate, but it seems that Hamet felt that his S. adolphi was closely associated with S. allantoides, and Bitter did not think his plant had a close relationship with allantoides.

Perhaps Hamet described his plant first, but he apparently didn't describe it very well if Bitter (while acknowledging that Hamet must have had inadequate specimens) enumerates points where Hamet's description of S. Adolphi did not fit that of Bitter's S. Nussbaumerianum.

I don't know who later decided that the plants were synonymous (or why), but Bitter had Hamet's description in hand, and was familiar with the Sedums brought back from Mexico by Purpur in 1907 (& from other trips?) and grown in several German gardens. Perhaps they were not obviously synonymous, but some nomenclaturist felt that Hamet's description needed to be shoehorned into synonymity with one of Purpur's Mexican Sedums. Shrug!

For me, it raises the question of whether naming priority should be given to an earlier description which is incomplete, and apparently wrong or ambiguous about key points. I am assuming that Bitter wasn't faking his doubts about Hamet's plant, and that Hamet's description was indeed not very accurate/complete.
Avatar for scvirginia
May 10, 2022 7:28 PM CST
Name: Virginia

Thank You! Baja, for the acorns.

BHL didn't have the complete description of S. adolphi by Hamet; either the scanner skipped a page, or someone removed that page from the Library's copy being scanned. I did find another scan online, however, so have a look to see if you think it's complete and accurate. It *is* pretty short.

I don't know the plant, so I can't say which description is better, but I remember some Latin from school, and don't see any reference to color of petals or leaves... so it looks like Bitter was not being untruthful about that.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/c...

[If the link isn't "clickable", you may need to copy & paste the url into your browser.]
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May 10, 2022 7:32 PM CST
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Name: Joshua
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It is unusual for the earlier name not to have precedence, but the COL's latest update for this genus was only recent (Feb 2022) and the upstream datasource (World Plants) reflects the use of Sedum nussbaumerianum as the accepted taxon. I am not sure what the reasoning is for this decision by World Plants, but it could be the incompleteness of the description by Hamet as mentioned by other posters.

Do you know if there is a taxonomical authority for Crassulaceae?
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May 10, 2022 8:04 PM CST
Name: Baja
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The closest thing I know of is this site

https://www.crassulaceae.ch/de...

which is generally my reference about Crassulaceae, at least the one I generally trust the most, relating to cultivars and species.

The search engine on their home page doesn't work that great, but there are other ways to get the info from the site.
Avatar for Aeonium2003
May 10, 2022 8:23 PM CST
Thread OP

Garden Ideas: Level 1
Yes that is my trusted site. There are also other sites including llifle, and cactus-art biz. However, the International Crassulaceae Network has the most information, and is more accurate. Smiling
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May 10, 2022 8:30 PM CST
Name: Connie
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Nice, I've bookmarked it.
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May 10, 2022 9:19 PM CST
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Thanks. Based on what I can see at www.crassulaceae.ch, it seems that they publish taxonomic revisions in their two publications as well as relying on other published works such as the Illustrated Handbook of Succulent Plants (2003).

My recommendation would be to draw the attention of World Plants to this resource (see their guide on how to contribute) so that these changes are incorporated into the major taxonomic references such as World Plants and the COL. I would prefer to get it changed in the upstream sources that we use rather than start making exceptions and needing to keep track of heaps of taxonomical references.
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May 10, 2022 9:36 PM CST
Name: Baja
Baja California (Zone 11b)
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I would be remiss not to repeat the wise advice Zuzu once gave me, which is that controversy about names sometimes is best addressed via a comment about the plant in question. When I have disagreed with the CoL in the past, I have found it constructive to express that in a location where it would exist on the record, and travel with the plant whatever it may be called tomorrow.

In this case I will comment myself, once I have studied my various references. This advice meant in a general way as a means to address name disputes in a useful way that benefits other database users.
Last edited by Baja_Costero May 10, 2022 9:37 PM Icon for preview
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