So now that I have a bunch of these started early.. specifically lupine and larkspur... that I have inside under grow lights w other seedlings.

Lupine needs warm temps to germinate (65-70). They've already got 3-4 true leaves. I read today, I can sew outdoors after danger of Frost or start indoors 8 weeks before last frost, but seedlings should be transplanted outside to their permanent location "right away, do not wait" as soon as they have true leaves b/c disturbing their tap roots will lead to stunted plants and poor blooming. Lupine are perennial and bloom early, may-early June. I honestly don't have a bed for them yet and I'm sure we'll get tons more frost... when/at what temperatures would you feel comfortable brining them out? I've moved anyone with roots peeking out into newspaper pots about 7" tall.. it was the most delicate transplant job of my life and I'm confident it was done well. Now I'm thinking maybe I should bring them outside during the day when temps are in 50s, or maybe tone down the artificial lighting to maybe slow em down a little? Or should I get let em go gangbusters and worry about it in another month?

Larkspur needs cool temps, ideally 50 degree soil to germinate and seedlings need a cool weather period of 6 weeks after hatching (lol) to bloom well. They say mid 50-60s is ideal, but no frost. I only have 4 seedlings from the first batch of ~ 40 seeds, even though the seed pack spent 2 weeks in fridge before potting, so I tried a cold stratification in wet paper towels for 10 days and planted the rest of the seeds today. They also don't like their tap roots disturbed. I knew that in advance, So I potted them in newspaper pots ~5" deep that will go straight in the ground.
It's just easier to move flats inside and out with the weather this time of year.. but now my problem is light. We only have about 11 hours of daylight and the sun is low, so I really don't have a good spot for more than 7-8 hours of sun a day.

No I know why no one grows these where I live. What a pain they are! It's not really them, it's the weather.. in the 5 day forecast it's gonna get up to 68 and down to 29.. I love the mild days, but they've got me all discombobulated.

You really can't believe those seed packets.
Seems like you could plant both of those outdoors as soon as soil can be worked.
I've autumn planted larkspur for spring bloom... no problem. It gets fairly cold here... they tolerate frost just fine. Dunno about frozen soil... probably not...
but 29 degrees? not a prob.

The humidity we have in the deep south seems to be too much for the lupine... they come up, but I've never gotten them to bloom...

stone said:You really can't believe those seed packets.
Seems like you could plant both of those outdoors as soon as soil can be worked...

Tell me about it! I've got one that says "plant in spring as soon as the soil has thawed and can be worked. Usually 4-6 weeks after the last frost."

HA! The soil can be worked yesterday and 6 weeks after the last frost is freakin Mid June!
I don't know what genius write that one, lol.

Hi Frilly, which ones did you try, larkspur or lupine? when/where did they go wrong? Did you start them inside or out? What type of planting conditions? Did they die on you, or just not bloom? Maybe I'll learn some pitfalls to try to avoid..

Frillylily said:I've tried them lots of times here, and can't get them to do any good.

That doesn't bode well.

I'm not that much further north of you - near Columbia. I've got 3 varieties of lupine undergoing cold stratification at the moment - and have a packet of larkspur seed as well. I'd planned on planting 18 of each (one full 1020), but I think that I will drop it to 9 of each since a dicey biennial isn't exactly easy mode :).

Top

Hi Top, are you in S.C. or M.O.?

Lupine or larkspur?

Larkspur volunteers all over the place here

Lupine not so freely--seems to insist on growing itself right where I don't really want it and resents transplanting. Sometimes I move the thing it's invading instead...
Anyway--they both show up well below our last potential frost here and don't seem to be decimated when one occurs, so maybe plant some out and keep some in/out to hedge your bets

Turbosaurus said:Hi Top, are you in S.C. or M.O.?

Lupine or larkspur?

Missouri. And both - I have multiple varieties of lupine seed in the 'fridge with a damp paper towel in a plastic bag. They supposedly have a higher germination rate with a bit of cold time.

I have larkspur seed, but I haven't prepped it yet. I've gone a bit bonkers on starting seed and at this point I don't think that I will get to it. FWIW, dwarf foxglove can flower in the same year if started early and it has the same general form. Thought that I would mention it in case it helps.

Top

My lupine seedlings are doing great, best seeds this year. I have no idea if they will bloom, but they are rock solid seedlings. Planted 40 seeds have 20 babies

Larkspur from seed are 'emm effers. They don't want to germinate. Plants need spring vernilization, BUT any seed that sprouts I will tell you about later

Turbosaurus said:My lupine seedlings are doing great, best seeds this year. I have no idea if they will bloom, but they are rock solid seedlings. Planted 40 seeds have 20 babies

That _is_ encouraging and 20 sounds like a good number.

I will plant the lupine into 3.5" pots next weekend (they'll have over 500 hours of cold time by then) and will drop two seeds into each. I am hoping to avoid tap root problems by going a bit large on the container and then by ensuring that they are hardened and in the ground around the 18th of April.

I always lose plants during the hardening off stage - hopefully I do better at it this year. Sunburning young plants is way too easy.

Top

Once I learned about the whole taproot drama I rolled up some really deep newspaper pots..

The Lupines germinate much better and faster w a nick in the seed coat and a 24 hour soak before potting.
The larkspur that were dry stratified, (putting the seed pack in the fridge dry for 2 weeks)didn't do well.
4 out of 40 and three weeks to germinate is pretty shoddy if you ask me, both in terms of wasted space and time.. the 18 cells that didn't grow anything could have been used for something better. My second round was cold stratified in the fridge in wet paper towels from 3/1 to planting on 3/11 and I already have two seedlings from that batch, so I think in the future I'll either winter sow late Feb or do the cold wet stratification in the fridge for 10-14 days.
Outdoor seeding is not an option for me because I have such limited yard space, I'm relatively inexperienced, Its hard to recognize seedlings vs weeds, I have retaining walls that capture every blowing leaf in the neighborhood in my beds making spring clean up and seedlings mutually exclusive, I don't want to be outside w a magnifying glass.. I'd rather hoe the bed clean and transplant

Oh, and the larkspur seedlings are outside on the south side of my house, uncovered. We've had 3-4 nights in the mid-high 20sF (-3-4 C) and they have no damage although they are growing very slowly. The oldest seedling peeked out of the soil on 3/3, and has two 3-5mm true leaves.

I've been cleaning up the gardens and weeding out copious larkspur--already 3 in tall in some areas wish I could send you some!

Uggh! You're so mean! You're not getting away with this! Now you have to tell me all about this..
Tell me about this larkspur patch?
When is your first frost in fall and last frost in spring? Is it full sun? Any companion platings? Do you clear the area, or is there leaf mulch/ other detritus that you let accumulate? What are your annual habits that might make this soil more receptive? When do your larkspur bloom, and do you just let them self seed? Is there any disturbance between seed drop and now that might effect outcome?

Sorry, I don't mean to be mean.
I have multiple patches, all from letting a few here and there go to seed without regard to my future 'weed' problem.
But, to answer your questions:
First and last frosts are variable of course, but somewhere around the end of Sept/first of October in the fall and we are usually frost free by about mother's day but no guarantee ...
They germinate the best in full sun, gravelly soil--i.e. my rock gardens--the area is crowded with companion plants for sure! I do spring cleanup but never much in the fall, so there is all the standard perennial detritus accumulation plus all the leaves that blow in and get caught around the bushy stuff and rocks. I also have them in shadier areas just not to the same rather explosive levels They start blooming end of May, peak for the month of June and go on sporadically thru July and August and that's when I am usually ripping them out and scattering seeds willy-nilly in the process. I have had some by the porch that I have kept going into the fall, they got about 8' tall kept cutting off the seed pods (trying, not to create a future weed problem--futile). Pretty much now, I thin them in spring cleanup and rip them out in July.
There is all kinds of soil disturbance up until I hibernate in the winter...

what kind of poppy seed?

I grow poppies effortlessly.

http://gardens-in-the-sand.blo...

for me... its the same deal as the larkspur... plant in october.

in missouri?
maybe as soon as soil can be worked.