I contacted an extention agent and then they have sent the pictures of my daylilies with the buds basically in the ground poking out and trying to open their blooms
are now forwarded to a plant
pathologist at a university last week for his opinion.

First the agent asked did you use copper sulfate
to spray them last year for rust prevention
I hung my head as I heard that question asked of me on the phone..YES.

so while I am waiting...for the plant pathologist to answer my letter

I researched copper sulfate to see if it stays in the soil for years and if it will cause stunting and bud deformity for years to come in these
once striking and beautiful tall blooming daylilies?

It is possible that the plant DNA or a better word for it
has been altered by the copper sulfate..

I am not a plant pathologist...but I do have common
sense and a curiosity as to why something happened to my adored and valuable plants.

I can never remove that much soil two foot down in two daylily flower beds if the copper sulfate will be in that soil and cause problems for years to come in any perennial that would be replanted in those two flower beds...

nor pay for those plants again...

nor the labor physical..

Here is what they used to look like before copper sulfate sprayed twice a month and measured in water correctly by me.
Here are stunted plants with lots of buds growing out of the dirt...and flowers opening at ground level and crowded and not able to open because they are not on a scape or stem..

All were 34 inches tall and most up to 38 inch blooming daylilies..

you will see pictures of how they looked before last year.

Hopefully they were just stunted by the crazy winter we had. My early season bloomers were like that too. Blooming down in the fans some almost were on the ground. With that being said our mid season season bloomers are doing right. Tall healthy scapes. Buds opening correctly as long as the morning isnt too cool. No buds turning yellow and falling off.
I know this probally doesnt help but i will and hope your midseason turns out better.

Roger & Karen @Diggerofdirt

I just realized what you said - your early bloomers had short scapes just like these? But the mid season ones were as tall as normal. Has that happened before?

We've established now that the copper sulfate did not cause this stunting. And I should respond to Sheri's @Sheridragonfly concern- the copper sulfate would not have affected the plants' DNA.

In fact, the plant tissue tests she sent showed that the copper level was almost below normal. So that shows the copper did not in any way poison the plants.

Also, sulfate is the dissolved form of sulfur that plants normally absorb to get the sulfur they need - it's essential. Any excess in the soil sinks below root level. It's generally harmless.

We're still working on determining what caused the stunting. Evidently a nutrition problem. Looking like low nitrogen (N) and/or potassium (K) both of which could have been higher. We'll supply more of those this fall and next spring and see what happens.🤞🏻

Pat

Yes. It has happened before. Especially in early spring.
It gets unseasonably warm,and then we have a cold snap. Warms up gets cold again. That's exactly what I think happens to them. Stunted growth

Hi there
Mine were stunted in April and even rebloomers at dirt level
This year fourth consecutive year

Well it's interesting all the talk and sharing we have got started !

I am taking pats advice
Going to get ultra feed by Scott's
Apply a teaspoon per plant
Staying away from the centers

Sept and March 1
My hand application time

Continue once a month fungicide spraying starting March 1
Stopping sept 1
To help prevent rust


Sheri

@Diggerofdirt
Thank you for the reply! So your midseason ones bloomed as tall as normal. But Sheri's later blooms were still stunted. Seems like hers have a different cause.

Greg Bogard @seascape reported that his short scapes were corrected by fertilizing with a high nitrogen, fairly high potassium lawn fertility (30-0-10). Since we know that low potassium (K) caused short scapes in one experiment, and also that nitrogen (N) is a factor in scape height and also general plant vigor which produces taller scapes, improving the nutrition of her daylilies should help a lot.

One problem with using all-purpose fertilizers like 8-8-8 or 12-12-12 as Sheri was doing is that the nitrogen (N) and potassium (K) are released very rapidly - within 8 weeks. They dissolve and are carried deep into the soil by rains before the plants have time to use them. She was applying them March 1. With the plants not reaching the period of rapid scape growth until weeks later, probably much of it was not available when needed. The leaves of her plants looked generally healthy. Many of them were on the plants when the fertilizer was applied or grew soon after. I think they did benefit from it. But then there was little or none left to absorb for the scapes.

And on the other negative side, the phosphorus (P) in those fertilizers lasts "too long" compared to the N and K. So it builds up, year after year. The phosphorus in Sheri's soil test was high enough to suggest that excess phosphorus (P) is contributing to stunting the plants. Changing the fertilizer should help overcome this.

According to my calculations, the 3 tablespoons of 8-8-8 she was applying amounted to the equivalent of 86 pounds/acre each of N, P, and K. That was not enough N or K - and way too much P.

In contrast, Ultrafeed has a 6-month release period, which will gradually feed the N and K allowing them to be applied at a higher initial rate without "burning" the plants, then gradually feeding them over a long period. Since it has 0 phosphorus, it will gradually allow the excess phosphorus to leave the soil.

I'll repeat some of this and add more on the thread Sheri started in the Daylilies Forum, https://garden.org/thread/go/1...

Pat
Attn: @Sheridragonfly

@ShakespearesGarden - Thank you for the acorn! 😊
Very much appreciated!
Pat

Pat, I'm gonna have to fertilize by beds at some point- it's fabulous to know that P sticks around in the soil, so I'll remember to get something N and K based.

Now, someone gets to remind me
N= Shoots(green growth) , P= roots and K= flowers yes?

I think that may be a really simplified and somewhat misleading statement that is generally accepted. I think most gardeners look at that and think by adding more of one or the other ingredients they will get better results for foliage, roots, or blooms and that is often not the case. It seems to get really complicated and I get bogged down in the details, but it seems too much of anything can be bad for the plants and too little of anything can keep them from performing their best.

Hi Diane @ShakespearesGarden

I wish it was as simple as that but the truth is:
N = everywhere in the plant
P = everywhere in the plant
K = everywhere in the plant

And all the other essential elements are active everywhere in the plant. That's why they are essential - all 20 of them.

Larry @Seedfork is right - too much of anything in the soil is just that - too much! The growth of the plant will be negatively affected in some way(s). Too little of any essential element - the plant will be underdeveloped in some way (s).

In plant nutrition there is a principle called "the limiting element". Adding additional quantities of an element that is insufficient will increase growth until the point is reached at which the available quantity of some other element is insufficient.

In many soils, the most common limiting element is nitrogen (N). It is held only in the organic matter. OM is often low especially in soils that have been cultivated for a long time without a fallow period (planted to a years-long deep rooted stand of perennial plants). That is why a fertilizer with only nitrogen will improve the growth of most plants in these soils.

Beyond that general fact, it's very hard to make any general statements about how plants will respond to adding any given fertilizer.

Gardeners should always be leery of adding phosphorus (P) without a soil test. It is generally the most likely to be excessive especially if the gardener has added "balanced" fertilizers like 8-8-8, 10-10-10, 12-12-12 and 5-10-5. Contrary to growing roots, excess P will stunt the root growth!

Adding lime without a soil test is also risky. The calcium (Ca) can interact adversely with some other essential elements.

Some fertilizers are less likely to cause long-term problems because they don't linger long in the soil, such as most forms of potassium (K).

There just aren't any generalizations that I would make about how much of any fertilizer to use. Getting a soil test is essential. Adding a tissue analysis for the plant(s) you are most concerned about will give a fuller picture of the situation in your own garden.

Pat

@Hortaholic
I'll keep your advice in mind! The bed I need to fertilize hasn't had anything added in at least 3 years. No fertilizer, compost, nada. So I think I can add some N and K without issue. I'll invest in a soil test kit to keep track.

I haven't had any problems with stunting, blasting, bud drop, rust, or serious aphids/mites. I do think though, that performance is suffering due to an ongoing lack of available nutrients. I'd love to see how bud count and branching are affected on my under-fed Daylilies.

Q: is there a reliable kit for testing water? I don't think I've ever looked for or seen one. I can smell and taste the chlorine in my city water and wonder what the levels are at for nitrates, chlorine, etc. I know chlorine salts can eventually harden the soil and make nutrient uptake difficult/impossible. It's been so dry here, I've had to water and I'm wondering how much of an impact it could have on my plants.

I don't drink the tap water here. I was spoiled with well water for too long. City water is just gross.

Swimming pool test kits will check for chlorine

Diana, there are pond and aquarium test strips and kits that test for chlorine. These are available from chain pet stores, amazon and likely other places. However, one word of caution. I use the test strips to test for chlorine, among other things, in our Koi pond. [Chlorine can kill Koi fish]. Few years back a test strip showed elevated levels in the koi pond but when we then tested the tap water, the test strip showed no levels. I, like you, can often smell chlorine in the tap water so something wasn't right. Our local pet store tests water samples free of charge and we take samples there when the need arises. The test strip was correct as to the levels shown in our pond but can not be used for an accurate reading of the levels in a cup of tap water. Something to do with ppm (parts per million), the volume tested, a cup verses gallon or gallons etc. We also learned for what its worth that some municipalities have changed from chlorine to chloramine to sanitize tap water. Which for our purposes we learned that some pond treatments, at that time, only treated chlorine in pond water and not chloramine. That was our issue. Although we always added treatment after water changes, we didn't realize that the treatment we used didnt treat chloramine. I wish I retained more information as to the testing of the tap water, but I was only concerned with the level in the pond and how to treat that. I share the experience to just point out that test strips may not provide an accurate reading at least if you are just testing a cup of water. I don't know if this applies to test strips made for other uses such as for pools and I also dont know if this would occur if you used a pond/aquariam test kit rather than the strips (the test kit has test tubes, small bottles of solution). I looked around here to see if I still had a test kit but unfortunately I do not.

Diana @ShakespearesGarden

We don't drink our well water directly because it's unpalatable. It's also salty because of the water softener. We installed an undersink reverse osmosis unit which delivers the water through a separate small tap. We drink it and cook with it. The unit was affordable and the filters last for months with just the 2 of us using the water.

If you want to know more than just chlorine, this company accepts samples from all over the country and has a wide spectrum of water testing services. They supply free sample mailing materials! I don't know the cost but you'll need to phone them anyway so it's easy to find out. They're very friendly. You would probably want Test 4 for domestic consumption.

https://watersag.com/wp-conten...

Pat

K and Pat, thank you both so much for all of the info.
I will look into test strips, kits, make some calls and do some more research so I can get some accurate info on what my city is using to treat water (chloramine is new to me) and what might be left in the water after treatment.
Lincoln does send out an annual water quality report, but I don't recall seeing info on how water was treated, just levels of certain minerals, chemicals (ew) and contaminates (ppm and acceptable ranges for all data).
I appreciate all of the knowledgeable folks on here who will go out of their way to provide facts, education, links etc! Ya'll ROCK!

April 2023 update from sheri on stunted scapes on all daylilys in two different beds

I used the scotts fertilizer recommended by a member last sept and this feb by digging down two inches around each daylily hill
Then spread with a teaspoon all around each plant in the soil and by hand covered the trench up
They had water throughout the year and the foliage is lush and plants multiplied greatly

However the scapes never got taller and stunted so I believe it was the copper sulfate I used as directed and measured a few years ago to prevent rust

Disheartening because it was very hard physically to weed by hand
And spray and fertilize cost

and work also cost of each daylily purchased and that's part of having a flower 🌸 garden

Hope you have tall beautiful blooms on yours this year

One other question how many of you in southern states spray monthly to prevent rust?

Sheri

I would not give up on the scapes getting taller yet. Those late few days of freezing weather in March has made a lot of the scapes in my garden short just like it did last year.
I spray for rust, leafminer, aphids, thrip, spider mites, leafhoppers and sometimes grasshoppers. I start fertilizing around the 15th of February and around the first of March I start spraying, normally on a 21 day spray cycle. It is expensive, it is a lot of work, and it is miserable during the summer. Also I sometimes I add Miracle-Gro to the spray mixture for extra nitrogen and minor elements.
I work hard at trying to keep the weeds under control, I am pretty successful in the garden beds, but am always losing the weed battle in the lawn, even with spraying for weeds also.
I have found that for really nice tall thick scapes a lot of water and fertilizer is the way to go. I haul in tons of leaves and grass clippings and pine straw to build up the soil also.
The way I grow daylilies is a lot or physical labor, a lot of expense, but also a lot of enjoyment when I see the results.
Daylilies love water, I water mine during the winter when it gets too dry. I try to never let the beds dry out. They love two inches of water a week, they will live on a lot less water but will not really do their best.

oops - wrong thread -moving comment

I'm not from the south and don't have any ideas, but I do have words of encouragement. I agree with Larry, eventually those plants will recover and become the size they are intended to be.

Also, that Easter bonnet is absolutely perfect.

If you get an infestation of grub beetles, they can eat the roots and cause the stunted growth. Have you dug any of these up to check the roots? In freeze and thaw winters that are mild, the beetles have field day here in TN.