Does anyone know of any definitive differences between M. adansonii and epipremnoides(formerly)/esqueleto? Some people say that adansonii don't have the midrib perforations, but I have seen some older mature adansonii climbing trees with the perforations similar to esqueleto. I also find that some forms of adansonii such as the adanosnii sp. Bolivia(not official ID) and narrow form looks similar to esqueleto in terms of perforation and leaf size.

I have never been more confused






Esqueleto

I always thought that Monstera's were all alike in that leaves were highly variable, morphing and changing as the plant matures and climbs. The Swiss Cheese Philodendron (Monstera adansonii) climbing a tree in my garden has mature leaves with fenestrations that go all the way to the midrib.




@Gina1960 is quite familiar with many Aroids, perhaps she can offer help.

Yeh what a can o'worms.
We had a MOST EXCELLENT discussion about this on Facebook a while ago. I will provide some links that you can follow to see what it was all about.

https://www.facebook.com/micke...
and
https://www.facebook.com/group...

These are from a page I am on for Monstera peeps

Thanks @plantladylin & @Gina1960 !!

I have read that post in the past about epipremnoides not being what we thought it was, but if it's not epipremnoides, then what is it? Are they all just large narrow form adansonii?

I think that this may be an area that is just at the present time unresolved. There is at least one guy who is doing research on Monstera. there nay also be others, to try and revise the genera. I don;t think there has been a revision of the genus since when? The 1970's? I think Dr. Thomas Croat was/is working on a revision and has enlisted these younger scientists to help with the field work so perhaps in the future there will be more data available. I myself tend to stay away from stuff like this, people who do not know exactly what they have are selling what they think is one thing and it may not really be that, and the amount of $$ that is being asked is just too much to not be certain. I am sure this happens in Australia as well....people are selling hybrid plants as species and people who do not know the difference buy them and then it turns out they don;t have what they thought they were buying. I think this is happening with all the genera

There was an auction a few weeks ago on eBay(australia) a cutting listed as "Variegated Epipremnoides" and it went for $9,600 AUD. The more I look at the pictures, the more confused I am Considering we don't really even know what the actual Epipremnoides actually looks like with all the confusion surrounding this matter, I was surprised to see it sell for triple the starting bid price! Price gouging and bid shilling is a very real thing on eBay, but due to the anonymity of bidders it's difficult to tell if someone's hustling I am highly sceptical when it comes to auctions.

I agree. I have sold a few things on Facebook via an auction page but no one is selling questionable plants there. Its a private by invitation page, people who are on another page that is related can ask to join. Sellers have to have been on the other page for a period of time, sold, and not had negative feedback. Everything is a 'known' lol. I sold a rooted 'CHONK' ( I hate the new aroid terminology LOL) basically a stem cutting of an Anthurium for $400. I started the bids at $75 and thought it might go to $100. Amazed.

The problem (as I and some of my aroid friends who have talked about this see it) is that there are so many new people in the hobby, that people who have grown plants for sometimes as little as 3-4 months now consider themselves experts at identifying plants. They are importing plants from Asia, rehabbing them only enough so that they are not ragged stumps, and reselling them for huge profits to people just as new to the hobby as they are. Who don;t really know the difference.

I am not trying to make myself out to be any expert myself, but I have been in this hobby since the early 1990's. A large percentage of the plants in my collection are what would be termed 'heirloom'. They were the versions being sold a decade or more ago. Since that time some of these plants have morphologically changed due to tissue culture, hybridization etc. The plant I sold for $400 is a very pure form of that species. It is different from the ones on the market now.

But these new hobbyists don;t really realize that there is any difference between 'old collections' and what is being sold on the Asian markets today. They are sometimes selling hybrids as species. The are selling juvenile plants that you cannot really tell WHAT they are. Because they do not know the difference. And making other errors in identification.
I have been told by other long term collectors that my collection is like a time capsule. It is a little bubble full of stuff that no longer exists in what is available today. And a lot of people have these types of collections and do not know it. Plants they have had for 20 years that fell out of favor on the market, and maybe are making a comeback.

I used to sell on eBay 10-15 years ago. It was a lot different then. Not as cut throat, not as specialized. I would be afraid to do it now.

I bet you're real proud of your collection @Gina1960. It certainly is very impressive from the pcitures you have shared

With all the crazy prices right now it leads me to wonder if this "aroid bubble craze" burst? What if they TCed all the "rare" and hard to come by aroids? Wouldn't the price completely drop overnight? But I suppose TC wouldn't work for variegated plants. It would be so lovely if we all could enjoy these beautiful specimens without the high price tag (that's if you don't mind it being as "pure")

In Australia it is pretty much near impossible to import plants unless you are doing them in bulk (by the thousands probably). Super expensive and a time enduring process... The extremely harsh quarantine laws really suck for people who want to buy cheaper from overseas, but it's so important to protect our agriculture and environment. Once the imported plants arrive into the country they go into a 3 month quarantine period at the biosecurity warehouse and most of the time they meet their demise due to fumigation or lack of/inadequate care of knowledge from the people running the place. You're not allowed to visit your plants either while they're there, so the best you can do is hold you're breath for three months and hope that you may still some sign of life. There's hardly any way to justify paying 10's of thousands of dollars to import plants here with the unfavourable odds, unless you're running a business. It's a little over $1200 per sq. metre of warehouse space for your plants during quarantine. There is a big demand for rare plants here that can hardly be met and it makes everything just sooo expensive. Price differences between US and Australia for the same plants makes me wish I lived elsewhere

I'm not sure what the importing process is like in the US but something tells me it's a little easier and less strict. Have you ever had any experience with it? @Gina1960

I think 'proud' is not the right word. I ENJOY my plants. I don;t get the opportunity now to visit other people of my age or even a generation older who are also long term collectors. A couple gentleman who we are acquainted with live here in Florida about 2 hours from us. We always know about them years ago because we were on other forums and other sites with them that no longer exist. They have been collectors since the 70's, a full 20 years before me. SO you can imagine the scope of their collections.

The truth is that in the late 190's into the early to mid-2000's, that was the LAST aroid craze. The tissue culture company here is the US that was kind of in the lead of that so to speak is called Agristarts. They were responsible for a huge amount of the aroids being sold. Stuff like the Queen Anthurium, many bird nest types, veitchii, all of the jewel alocasias, and not just aroids...all the really cool ornamental bananas, gingers...all sorts of tropical plants. You used to be able to buy something like a Queen Anthurium for $25. Or an ALocasia cuprea for $10. A Musa Okinawa might run you $15. Look at those prices now.
Agristarts has changed their business model now to concentrate mainly on plants that have been patented. I know a guy here who grows and hybridizes gingers and he puts his things into tissue culture with them and told me that they will not even look at plant material now that is not patented. They are doing almost no aroids. Most of the aroids now are being tissue cultured in the Netherlands and in Asia. Agristarts is probably doing some dreck work churning out plain Monstera deliciosa and adansonii. It would be easy to find out by googling them and looking at what their websites say they are producing.If the did start producing plugs like they did in the old days, yes, I think prices would plummet.
I personally do not import plants. I was part of one group importation years ago, the main person who handled it was an established brick and mortar nursery who had all th import permits and stuff. I have no idea how it works. I have heard people say that you can impost up to 12 plants without a permit, they all have to have the proper Phytosanitary documents and of course cannot be rare or endangered as per CITES regulations. Bit that is not for me. Most of the aroids that are coming in as imports for these folks who want to resell them come in really rough, root systems cooked, leaves dead, they are always crying in their milk online saying they will have to do extensive rehab on their imports. I think its silly.

Interesting! I checked out the Agristarts website and it seems that they do a limited range of aroids but none of the really super expensive highly sought after ones. It would be interesting to see how/if the trend changes in time. Since you've been at this hobby for a while, what was trending between the two aroid crazes?

Most of the things that have trended recently is the line of Curcuma gingers out of Asia that sell under the Chaidee brand. I know a guy here who is a big ginger guy, he has been since the 1970's, and is set to retire this year, who has put some of his one Kaempferia and other hybrids that he patented into TS 2 years ago. Other than that I think they were just cranking out the usual stuff for interiorscape. I think they jumped on the Birkin bandwagon. But they can churn out liner after liner of the different calatheas and other old standard houseplants and keep in a good business. They have continued to steadily reproduce the ALocaisa hybrid made by Lari Ann Garner (she patents most) They used to TC things like Alocasia cuprea, A. reginula, high end anthuriums like Waroc, veitchii, Marie, spectabile....lots of stuff. They were a big source for ornamental bananas in the mid to late 2000's. That was when you could get stuff like Musa Okinawa, velutina, Ice Cream, etc for real cheap...also Basjoo.

turdly said:ehh, sorry but stop acting like your an houseplaant og just becauuse you started so many years ago. the younger generation is allowwdd to buy as many rare plants as we want. we dont care weather or not theye PURE or not we just like the way they look. acting like you guys are suprior or something.

kaylee ellen on youtube is the queen of aroids. she is the one of the main reason why its boosted the popoularity. she knows so much about rare plants and how to rehab them and stuff. so what is she gets her plants from indonesia. she literally rehabs them alll and she knows what shes doing before she sells them again. she doesnt even make that much money from them i think. so dont call us all gold diggers. period.

turdly, Welcome!

This site is a place of camaraderie, learning and sharing. I know that we can interpret the written word differently than if we were chatting face to face and I have no idea what a houseplant og is but no one here is trying to act superior or trying to give the impression that they are better than anyone else.

Gina1960 is an extremely knowledgeable Aroid grower who has been learning about and tending this family of plants for many years and graciously helps all of us (old and young) with advise and suggestions on these wonderful plants! What she was stating is the truth, there ARE sellers out to make a quick buck, using false advertising! Unscrupulous sellers are offering up very common inexpensive plants as "rare and hard to find" at enormous prices and they are indeed gold diggers, taking advantage of those who think they are paying big bucks for something rare and special when it really isn't.

Members here love and enjoy all kinds of different plants and you will find both novice and experienced growers contributing to the forums. We enjoy chatting about our gardens and favorite plants, sharing photos, asking questions and offering advice. I hope you will take time to browse a few forums that you find of interest, join in on the chat and discussion, share information and grow along with the rest of us. 🌴 🌺🌻🌿🍃

Thanks for the info

You mentioned TC cupreas and that reminds me, a couple weeks ago there was a tonne of TCed red secrets being sold for a $39.95 in Australia at a big-box store, but they were all very weirdly mangled looking. The leaves were misshapen and they just looked very sad and matte. Anyway, some kind person notified everyone on the "Buy, swap, sell Australia" FB page about the great deal and some lady came in and cleaned out every last one of them out! Later that day they were all being sold on ebay for nearly 4 times the price

Speaking of banana palms, do you have any? (I'm sure you do - why do I even ask)

Well said!! @plantladylin

A lot of the TC Adansoniis here have been coming to market looking really weird and wonky. And of course, Monstera deliciosa is now being mass produced (even though it was always common here in FL).

I just looked at Agristarts for the first time in probably a decade. Yeah, it seems like they have really scaled back. They seen to have tons of Calidora, Boa, Sumo, Odora...something I have not seen in box stores in a long while they are producing....ALocasia plumbea 'Metallica', which I have been growing for about 20 years.

I used to have all the bananas LOL. I had 'Okinawa', laterita, velutina, Ice Cream, Hot Pink, one called Canary, and a bunch of others. I got mine mainly through trading. I still have laterita, Hot Pink and Basjoo. I also have a Praying Hands and some fruiting Dwarf Cavendish.

Its funny but most of my very best plants, aroid and other, have been trades.

I guess I should have asked "which banana palms have you not had?" instead
They must have occupied a lot of room! Although some could be dwarf varieties?

I grew them for a while, and in the end, the ones that proved hardiest here, I planted in the yard and kept. The others I traded away

Emma, are you a member of the IAS? A year ago this month a series of articles on Monstera started in the newsletters. A young researcher named Marco Cedeno Was awarded a scholarship from the Society of Systemic Biologists to study the genus Monstera in Central America. Dr. Thomas Croat of MOBOT wrote an introductory article about him. He has had articles appearing in the newsletter since, in the December 2019 issue and the March 2020 issue. Maybe if we are lucky one day he will solve the Esquelto question (and many others!) I think that you can read these articles online at aroid.org even if you are not a member. I'm not certain.

I'm not a member of the IAS but I do frequent the website so I should probably register a membership

I shall head over there and check out those articles.