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Jul 17, 2020 9:49 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Al F.
5b-6a mid-MI
Knowledge counters trepidation.
Japanese Maples Deer Tropicals Seed Starter Overwinters Tender Plants Indoors Region: Michigan
Houseplants Foliage Fan Dog Lover Container Gardener Birds Wild Plant Hunter
My hope is that this thread becomes a gathering place for both beginners and experienced growers, a place where reliable information rooted in sound science and horticulture can be found. We will see how that 'gathering' part goes, but I have enjoyed enthusiastic participation on many of my other threads on forum sites, so I am optimistic.

I enjoy the my own growing experience tremendously. I have worked hard toward increasing my own level of proficiency for more than 30 years, and I look at sharing what I have learned about the growing sciences as a natural extension of the enjoyment I get from nurturing plants - sort of nurturing people who nurture plants. I am invited to lecture frequently in the mid-MI area, and occasionally beyond. I lecture, conduct workshops, and do demonstrations on a variety of subjects related to growing, but most frequently I talk about things related to container culture, with maintaining houseplants being one of the most requested topics.
The first challenge is to offer information that a beginner can digest, and in such a way that he or she feels it is important enough to act on. I am first going to flesh out the main issues that, if understood, will make anyone a better grower. I also hope the information is promising enough to prompt plenty of questions. For what it is worth, I tend to look at growing anything in containers from the perspective of what is best for the plant, not what is best for the grower. Far more often than not, the two perspectives are mutually exclusive because growing with proficiency does take some thought and effort.

The houseplants we grow are nearly all perennials, so they are capable of growing for many, many years, and if properly cared for could be passed down from generation to generation. With attention to the areas I will cover in this post, you will discover that you can maintain your plants in good health for as long as you are willing to continue to commit to providing favorable cultural conditions. Your plants are all genetically programmed by Mother Nature to grow well and look beautiful. It is only a lack of knowledge and skill in the area of providing the cultural conditions they prefer that prevents them from growing to their potential. That sounds harsh, but it is the truth.
I have never seen anyone other than me discuss growing plants in containers from this perspective, that is (and it bears repeating) your plants are already genetically programmed to grow well and look beautiful, but it is up to you as a grower to eliminate the limitations so often associated with growing in containers. This post is about identifying some of the cultural factors which are commonly most limiting and helping you to reduce or eliminate their limiting effects.

Soil Choice
Growers should realize that the most important choice they will make when establishing a new planting or when repotting is their choice of soil. A poor soil is probably behind more than 90% of the issues that growers come to the forums seeking remedial help for. Collapsed or dead plants, spoiled foliage, insect infestations, disease issues are all symptoms usually traceable directly or indirectly to poor root health caused by a poor soil and/or over-watering. This is so important to understand, that I will devote the bulk of my effort toward making it clear why I make this contention.

Light
is extremely important to plants. During the process of photosynthesis, plants make their own "food", using water, CO2, and energy from the sun to synthesize their food - sugar/carbohydrate. Inadequate light means the plant cannot make enough food to realize the genetic potential with which it was programmed. I will not go into great detail about light because when it comes to houseplants; you either have access to good light or are forced to deal with the limiting effects of inadequate light. If the thread finds favor, we can discuss supplementing light and how to prune to help compensate for the leggy appearance caused by insufficient light, or explore other topics of interest relating to light.

Nutritional Supplementation
is a requirement for normal growth and good health when growing plants in containers. If growing in the earth, many of the nutrients are supplied by minerals and organic components in the soil. Container soils usually have no mineral component (and it is best that they do not in most cases - more later), and the largely organic soil components break down so slowly and are washed from the soil so quickly, deficiencies are virtually assured if you do not fertilize. Choice of fertilizer is also an important consideration, as we will see.

>b>Repotting vs. Potting-Up</b>
Root congestion (being root-bound) begins to impose limitations on a plant about the point in time when the root/soil mass can be lifted from the pot intact, as a unit. From about that point forward, severity of limitations increases in a direct relationship with severity of the congestion. Commonly growers are advised to do this or that, but essentially pot up a pot size. That action, while it partially and very temporarily relieves some of the limitations associated with root congestion, ensures the worst of the congestion in the center of the root mass remains a perpetual limitation, or at best, a limitation until such time that a pair of hands actually gets into the root mass to correct the congestion and eliminate burgeoning future root problems. Repotting, which, for plants with fibrous, branching root systems that lend themselves to repotting, includes bare-rooting, root pruning, and a complete or near complete change of soil. It also ensures your plants will be completely free of the impacts of root congestion until the root system again becomes congested to the point where the root/soil mass can be lifted from the pot intact. Having completed more than 5,000 full repots, I can attest the difference in growth, health, appearance, and ability to defend themselves against diseases and insect herbivory is extreme. If a plant is well cared for and all else equal except one is potted-up the other repotted, the repotted plant will be far healthier and grow to be many times larger than its potted-up counterpart. I see it about 200 times per year.

Watering habits
are extremely important and inextricably linked to soil choice, which is why I saved it until the end of this 'short list' - so it would lead me back to the most important consideration - the one most apt to determine the difference between frustration and a rewarding growing experience.
Air is as important as water in all soils plants are to be grown in. Plants absolutely love plenty of air in the root zone, and rebel very quickly at too much water in the soil. I am going to describe what happens when you water plants growing in a soil that retains too much water. When you copiously water soils based on large fractions of fine materials like peat, coir, compost, composted forest products, sand, topsoil, ……, as you should, a layer of soil near the bottom of the container becomes 100% saturated, defies gravity, and will not drain. This layer of water has a name, it is called a 'perched water table' (PWT), so named because it 'perches' (like a bird) in the soil above the pot bottom. This excess water is critically important because it A) immediately robs roots of oxygen essential to their normal functions, and B) very quickly begins to kill fine roots growing near the bottom of the pot - within hours. The first roots to die are the roots that do the lion's share of the work - the very fine roots often referred to as 'hair roots'. The longer the soil remains saturated, the larger the diameter of the roots killed. When air finally returns to this once saturated soil, roots can only then begin to regenerate. During the cyclic death and regeneration of roots associated with excessively water-retentive soils, the plant is actually forced by chemical messengers that tell it to 'grow roots', to direct energy that would otherwise have been put toward growing more leaves, branches, blooms, fruit, or just increasing the overall mass of the plant.

If a grower is using a water retentive soil, the practice of watering in 'small sips' is often adopted so the soil remains damp instead of wet; this, to guard against limited root function and/or root rot. It makes sense to only give the plant a little water at a time so the soil never gets soggy - right? That might be a workable option if you have the luxury of using water that has been processed through a reverse osmosis water filtering system, or if you are watering with distilled water, but regular tap water has dissolved solids in it, like magnesium, calcium, iron, sulfur, and others. If you water in 'sips', these dissolved solids remain in the soil and build up over time. This has an impact on the plant's ability to absorb water and the nutrients dissolved in water. To illustrate the potential impact these dissolved solids have on a plant, picture in your mind what curing salt does to ham or bacon. It literally pulls water from the cells & dries out the meat. Any solutes (anything dissolved) in the solution surrounding plant roots can have the same potential effect on plant cells. It can make it difficult for plants to absorb water and nutrients, it can even make it impossible, and in extreme cases can actually reverse the flow of water so it moves OUT of cells, effectively collapsing and killing them. We commonly call this 'fertilizer burn', but it does not necessarily have to result from an over-application of fertilizer. When people come here wanting a remedy for foliage that is dying, with dried edges & tips, almost always it is the result of over-watering exacerbated by water-retentive soils and the accompanying limitation that has on root function/health, or as a result of the presence of a high level of dissolved solids from fertilizers and tap water having accumulated in the soil making it difficult for the plant to take up water. Both are so closely related to poor, water-retentive soils we can say the problem is inherent if not addressed directly.

Misting cannot correct a problem related to over-watering or a high level of solutes in your plant's soil. Low humidity can be a contributing factor to the common symptoms of necrotic (dead) leaf tips and margins (edges), but for the actual cause, look to impaired root function from over-watering or a high level of dissolved solids in the soil. BOTH of these conditions are nearly always linked to a poor soil. Misting raises humidity for a few minutes, but there are almost 1,500 minutes in a day. Raising humidity for 10 of the 1,500 has virtually no impact on the plant's ability to keep foliage hydrated. If you have foliage with burned leaf tips and margins, you should look to the soil and the state of root health for the cause.
When using water-retentive soils, it seems almost as though we are on the horns of a dilemma. If we water generously, we risk the soil remaining saturated so long it causes root rot, or at a minimum - impaired root function. If we water sparingly, in small sips, we risk an accumulation of dissolved solids from tap water and fertilizer solutions in the soil - so what to do? Well – why worry about being on the horns of a dilemma when we can eliminate the bull? Let's look at an option that solves both issues and makes things much easier for the grower, while also providing the grower with considerably more latitude when it comes to watering and fertilizing.
The factor that determines how water retentive and difficult a soil is to grow in, is the size of the particles it is made from. The smaller the particles - the greater the water retention and the greater the degree of difficulty for growers. Soils made of any combination of peat, coir, compost, sand, topsoil, and other fine particulates are going to be very water retentive, which we know is undesirable from the perspective of the plant, and they cannot be suitably amended to correct drainage or the height of the perched water by adding perlite or other drainage material. If anyone disagrees with that statement, please ask for an explanation before mounting an argument or offering individual observations.
Soils made of a high % of pine bark or other coarse inorganic particles will have plenty of large air spaces called macropores. These are pores that will not hold water, only air, even when the soil is as saturated is it can be (this state is called container capacity). They are critical to a healthy root zone. If you build a soil with plenty of air space, it hardly matters what the soil is made from. What is important is how the soil is structured. I will grow a perfectly healthy plant in a bucket of broken glass on a dare and a wager if anyone is interested in taking me up on it. If you have a soil with a healthy structure, a good nutritional supplementation program, and have good available light, the rest is so easy anyone can do it - honest. I have seen it happen over & over and over again. You will not go wrong if your primary focus is providing a healthy - a truly healthy environment for roots. Roots are the heart of the plant. Roots come first. If you cannot keep the roots happy, there is no chance you can keep the rest of the plant happy. That was a paraphrased quote from Dr. Carl Whitcomb, PhD, who wrote the bible on "Plant Production in Containers".
This ends the beginning discussion about soils. Until you are able to grow plants, the growth rate and appearance of which you are happy with, focusing on removing the limitations placed on your plants by soil choice will almost always constitute the best use of your energies. After reading this far, if nothing else, I hope you take that concept from this offering. It is the most important point and the best piece of advice I can give you. If you are interested in knowing HOW to make soils that will help you remove the limitations, now is the time to ask.

Nutrition
is an area that is very misunderstood when it comes to container culture, but it is actually very easy. It is also very easy to become confused because there are so many numbers that represent different fertilizer NPK percentages and so many different kinds of fertilizers. I will need to use some numbers, but I think an understanding of NPK percentages as opposed to fertilizer RATIOS is important. NPK %s tell us how much (N)itrogen, (P)hosphorous pentoxide, and (K) potassium oxide (the symbol for potassium is 'K') are in a fertilizer by weight. So a fertilizer that is labeled "All Purpose 24-8-16" is 24% nitrogen, 8% phosphorous pentoxide, and 16% potassium oxide. 12-4-8 is also a common "all-purpose" fertilizer. It has exactly half the nutrients of 24-8-16, but both are 3:1:2 RATIO fertilizers. Ratios are a way of describing the amount of nutrients in a fertilizer as they relate to each other. Why is this important? It is important because we know that on average, plants use about 6 times as much N as P, and they use about 3/5 as much K as N, and now I will tell you how we can use this information to our plant's advantage.

The ideal way to fertilize is to supply fertilizer at the same ratio in which plants use the nutrients. The reason is because optimal growth and vitality can be had only when nutrients are in the soil at overall levels low enough that it does not become difficult for plants to take up water and nutrients dissolved in that water. Remember what we said above about a high level of dissolved solids (salts) in the soil making it difficult for roots to absorb water and nutrients? Nutrients also need to be present at levels high enough to prevent deficiencies. If we think about it for a second, we can see that the best way to achieve this end is to supply nutrients at the same ratio in which they are used.

I noted that the NPK percentages actually tell us how much phosphorous pentoxide and potassium oxide are in a fertilizer so I can show you how fertilizer manufacturers arrived at a 3:1:2 ratio as their "all-purpose" blend. Only 43% of the P reported on a fertilizer label is actually P, and only 83% of the K reported is actually K. Once you apply these factors to any of the 3:1:2 ratio fertilizers (24-8-16, 12-4-8, and 9-3-6 are all popular 3:1:2 ratios), you will see they supply nutrients in almost exactly the same ratios as the average that plants actually use, and these fertilizers are excellent at keeping the overall level of solubles as low as they can be without creating nutritional deficiencies.

I use Dyna-Gro's Foliage-Pro 9-3-6. It's by far the best fertilizer I've found for containers, and I'm always paying attention for something better. There is no need to use 'specialty' fertilizers; and many specialty fertilizers, like the advertised "bloom boosters" with up to 30 times more phosphorous than a plant could ever use (in relation to the amount of N used), can be (almost always are) moderately to severely limiting because an excess of any nutrients individually or in combination with others nutrients has only the potential to be limiting.
The question often arises, "Should I use a synthetic or an organic fertilizer"? The answer is: "Use whichever you wish"; but the qualifiers are: Organic fertilizers are actually more accurately called soil amendments. They are mixed into the soil in the hope that at some point soil organisms will digest them and make them available in a form plants can absorb. The problem with that approach is the population count and activity levels of soil life in containers are erratic and unreliable, making the delivery of nutrients from organic sources just as erratic and unreliable. What you apply today, may not be available until next month, and there is no way to determine what residual amounts of which elements remain in the soil. Soluble fertilizers like Miracle-Gro, Foliage-Pro and others, are completely available as soon as applied, and we know exactly what our plants are getting. They are simply much easier to use and deliver nutrients much more reliably than other fertilizer types. You can lump controlled release fertilizers like Osmocote and others in with the soluble synthetic fertilizers. With them, you get an extra measure of convenience but sacrifice a measure of control. As with all fertilizers, it is important to note the NPK percentages to be sure you are supplying the fertilizer in a favorable ratio if you want your plants to be all they can be.

When it comes right down to what occurs at the molecular/cellular levels, plants take up nutrients in ionic form. They cannot absorb the nutrients that are locked in the hydrocarbon chains that make up organic fertilizers until the molecules are broken down into a simpler form. At that point, all nutrients are taken up in the same form, no matter if they came from compost, a dead fish, or a hose end sprayer. Plants could care less where their nutrients come from, as long as they have a constant supply of all essential nutrients at all times.

It is not going to kill your plants if you use a fertilizer with a less than favorable ratio because plants tend to take the nutrients they need from the soil (solution) and leave the rest, but it is important to understand that it is 'the rest' that constitutes a limiting factor; so avoiding unnecessarily high levels of any one nutrient or nutrients whenever possible is to your (plant's) benefit.

It is important to understand that growing in containers is markedly different than growing in gardens. On a scale of 1-10, with 1 being growing in the garden and 10 being hydroponics, gardening in containers is much closer to hydroponics than gardens, getting a rating of somewhere around 7 or 8. This is why many of the practices that serve us so well in our gardens do not work well in containers. One area that is often a sticking point is the idea we need to "feed the soil". While that is an admirable and productive approach to gardening in the earth, container soils are more about their structure than about any nutrients they might supply. If you concentrate on your soils structure and durability of that structure, and more specifically the soil's ability to hold plenty of air, you will greatly increase both the probability of consistent success and the margin for grower error. Well-aerated soils are easier to grow in and offer much greater opportunity for plants to grow as near to their potential as possible.

As noted above, most growers draw no distinction between 'repotting' and 'potting up'. I have spent literally thousands of hours digging around in the root-balls of containerized plants. Old plants from nurseries or greenhouses are probably the closest examples to what most houseplants are like below the soil line, so I'll offer my thoughts for you to consider or discard as you find fitting.

I have also helped salvage many plants that had been containerized for long periods and were 'circling the drain'. Illustration: Not long ago, our bonsai club invited a visiting artist to conduct a workshop with mugo pines. The nursery (a huge operation) where we have our meetings happened to have purchased several thousand of the mugos somewhere around 10 - 12 years prior and they had been potted up into continually larger containers ever since. Why relate these uninteresting snippets? In the cases of material that has been progressively potted-up only, large perennial roots occupied nearly the entire volume of the container, plant vitality was in severe decline, and soil in the original root-ball had become so hard that in some cases a chisel was required to remove it.

In plants that are potted up, rootage becomes entangled. As root diameters increase, portions of the roots constrict other roots and impair the flow of water and nutrients through them, much the same as in the case of girdling or encircling roots on trees grown in-ground. The ratio of fine, feeder roots to more lignified (woody) and perennial roots becomes skewed to favor the larger, and practically speaking, useless roots.
The initial symptoms of poor root conditions are progressive diminishing of branch extension on plants that branch, loss/shedding of foliage on the parts of branches nearest to the main stems or trunk, often giving the plant a 'poodle look', and reduced vitality. As rootage becomes continually compressed and restricted, branch extension stops and individual branches might die as water/nutrient movement is further compromised. Foliage quality may not (important to understand) indicate the tree is struggling until the condition is severe, but if you observe your plants carefully, you will find them increasingly unable to cope with stressful conditions - too much/too little water, heat, sun, etc. Plants operating under conditions of stress that has progressed to strain, will usually be diagnosed in the end as suffering from attack by insects or other bio-agents/disease while the underlying cause of root congestion goes unnoticed.

I will mention again that I draw distinct delineation between simply potting up and repotting. Potting up temporarily offers room for fine rootage to grow and do the necessary work of water/nutrient uptake, but these new roots soon lignify, while rootage in the old root mass continues to grow and become increasingly restrictive. The larger and larger containers required for potting-up & the difficulty in handling them also makes us increasingly reluctant to undertake even potting up, let alone undertake the task of repotting/root-pruning, which grows increasingly difficult with each up-potting.

So we are clear on terminology, potting up simply involves moving the plant with its root mass and soil intact, or nearly so, to a larger container and filling in around the root/soil mass with additional soil. Repotting, on the other hand, includes the removal of all or part of the soil and the pruning of roots, with an eye to removing the largest roots, as well as those that would be considered defective. Examples are roots that are dead, those growing back toward the center of the root mass, straight up, straight down, encircling, girdling or j-hooked roots, and otherwise damaged roots.

I often explain the effects of repotting vs potting up like this:
I will rate growth/vitality potential on a scale of 1-10, with 10 being the best. We are going to say that plants in containers can only achieve a growth/vitality rating of 9, due to the somewhat limiting effects container culture has on all plants. Lets also imagine that for every year a plant goes w/o repotting or potting up, its measure of growth/vitality slips by 1 number, That is to say you pot a plant and the first year it grows at a level of 9, the next year, an 8, the next year a 7. Also imagine please, we're going to go 3 years between repotting or potting up, which is how the illustration is structured.

Here's what happens to the plant you repot/root prune:

year 1: 9

year 2: 8

year 3: 7

repot

year 1: 9

year 2: 8

year 3: 7

repot

year 1: 9

year 2: 8

year 3: 7

You can see that a full repotting and root pruning returns the plant to its full potential within the limits of other cultural influences for as long as you care to repot/root prune.

Looking now at how woody plants respond to only potting up:

year 1: 9

year 2: 8

year 3: 7

pot up

year 1: 8

year 2: 7

year 3: 6

pot up

year 1: 7

year 2: 6

year 3: 5

pot up

year 1: 6

year 2: 5

year 3: 4

pot up

year 1: 5

year 2: 4

year 3: 3

pot up

year 1: 4

year 2: 3

year 3: 2

pot up

year 1: 3

year 2: 2

year 3: 1

This is a fairly accurate illustration of the influence tight roots have on a plant's growth/vitality. You might think of it for a moment in the context of the longevity of bonsai trees vs the life expectancy of most trees grown as houseplants, or the difference between less than 4 years versus more than 400 years, lying primarily in how the roots are treated.

I have not yet mentioned that the dissimilar characteristics of the old soil as compared to the new soil when potting-up; and the potential mixing of dissimilar soils in the same container are also a recipe for trouble. With a compacted soil in the old roots and a fresh batch of soil surrounding the roots of a freshly potted up plant, it is nearly impossible to establish a watering regimen that doesn't keep the differing soils either too wet or too dry, both conditions occurring concurrently being a limiting factor and the rule rather than the exception.

Most who read this would have great difficulty showing me a containerized plant that is more than 10 years old and as vigorous as it could be, unless it has been root-pruned at repotting time; yet I can show you hundreds of trees 20 years to 200 years old and older, and many of my very old houseplants/succulents that are in perfect health. All have been root-pruned and given a fresh footing in new soil at regular and frequent intervals, the same treatment all my houseplants get.

Thanks to any/all who made it this far. This is only an overview, but with even a rudimentary understanding of how to go about reducing the effects of the limiting factors that restrict growth and vitality, I know you can improve on how well your plants can grow, as well as on the degree of satisfaction you get from your growing experience - my only reasons for writing this. Hopefully the offering leaves you with many questions.

Al
* Employ your time in improving yourself by other men's writings, so that you shall gain easily what others have labored hard for. ~ Socrates
* Change might not always bring growth, but there is no growth without change.
* Mother Nature always sides with the hidden flaw.
Avatar for MsDoe
Jul 18, 2020 12:39 PM CST
Southwest U.S. (Zone 7a)
I'll start with a question: what is your recommendation for container choice? I've seen many problem plants in containers with no or poor drainage. Seems like another factor to be considered.
Also, can you post pictures of the plant grown in a bucket of broken glass? Sounds like a fun bet!
Thank you sharing your expertise, I find it helpful. Smiling
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Jul 18, 2020 1:51 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Al F.
5b-6a mid-MI
Knowledge counters trepidation.
Japanese Maples Deer Tropicals Seed Starter Overwinters Tender Plants Indoors Region: Michigan
Houseplants Foliage Fan Dog Lover Container Gardener Birds Wild Plant Hunter
Appropriate size of the container is determined partly by the plant's top and bottom (root) mass, but the how large the container CAN be, without risking problems, is determined by how much excess water the medium being used holds. In a medium like this:

Thumb of 2020-07-18/tapla/ce87b9 which is almost incapable of holding water in spaces between soil particles, you can start a tiny seed in a 55 gallon drum of soil w/o risking over-watering; whereas, when using a water-retentive medium, the seed would be at risk of perishing in only a cup of soil.

If you're asking about what type of pot material is best, we'd need to decide if you're looking at things through the filter of grower convenience or the filter of what's best for the plant. From the later perspective, pond baskets made of plastic mesh, colanders from the dollar store, small plastic clothes baskets with perforated sides will provide the best growth, even though they require watering more often. More traditionally, low-fired clay/ terra cotta is really hard to beat as the go to choice for plants. It's permeable walls promote much better gas exchange and provide for some evaporative cooling in the summer heat.

Actually, I have grown plants in broken glass, though it was long ago and I don't have an image. Before I retired and sold my business (contract glazing corporation) I had access to all the broken glass I could ever possibly want. Tempered glass breaks in small crystals about the size of shelled corn. It would be easy to grow a healthy plant in it, I'd just have to water 2-3 times daily. I'm just waiting for a doubter with $100 for the bet.

That last thought brings me around to another observation. Many container growers think that because they had success growing in gardens or the landscape, the practices they learned should work in containers. Containers are quite different from growing in the ground and require a whole new set of guidelines. For example, container media is all about its structure and the longevity of that structure, IOW how much air and water the medium holds and how long it will retain the ability to hold it, both of which should be the focus when building a medium. In the garden, you can feed the earth and the earth in turn will feed the plant. Not so much in containers, where the soil life can't be depended upon to make nutrients locked in the hydrocarbon chains of organic soil amendments available to the plant. That is up to the grower. Sp, on a scale of one to 10 with 1 being gardening in the earth and 10 being hydroponics, conventional container culture is about a 7 or 8 - much closer to hydroponics than gardening in the earth.

Al
* Employ your time in improving yourself by other men's writings, so that you shall gain easily what others have labored hard for. ~ Socrates
* Change might not always bring growth, but there is no growth without change.
* Mother Nature always sides with the hidden flaw.
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Jul 20, 2020 12:00 PM CST
Name: Sally
central Maryland (Zone 7b)
See you in the funny papers!
Charter ATP Member Frogs and Toads Houseplants Keeper of Poultry Vegetable Grower Region: Maryland
Composter Native Plants and Wildflowers Organic Gardener Region: United States of America Cat Lover Birds
Small sips of water versus watering until it drains out the bottom-

I wonder that with watering until it drains out the bottom, we may also be helping by forcing gases out of the pore space, and pulling fresh air down into the soil as the water drops and sucks... if you follow me. With sips, no great gas exchange. Do you think there's anything to this? I read some reference to this effect with soil in the ground, and rainfall.
Just wondering what you think, Al.
Plant it and they will come.
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Jul 20, 2020 2:10 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Al F.
5b-6a mid-MI
Knowledge counters trepidation.
Japanese Maples Deer Tropicals Seed Starter Overwinters Tender Plants Indoors Region: Michigan
Houseplants Foliage Fan Dog Lover Container Gardener Birds Wild Plant Hunter
Absolutely. As a flush of water moves through the soil, it expels waste gases like methane, CO2, sulfurous compounds, and pulls in fresh air behind it. Gas exchange and air porosity exert critical influence on root health. One of the reasons waterlogging of container media is so harmful pivots on the fact that gases diffuse about 10 thousand times faster in air than in water.
Great point, Sally!

Al
* Employ your time in improving yourself by other men's writings, so that you shall gain easily what others have labored hard for. ~ Socrates
* Change might not always bring growth, but there is no growth without change.
* Mother Nature always sides with the hidden flaw.
Image
Jul 20, 2020 2:13 PM CST
Name: Sally
central Maryland (Zone 7b)
See you in the funny papers!
Charter ATP Member Frogs and Toads Houseplants Keeper of Poultry Vegetable Grower Region: Maryland
Composter Native Plants and Wildflowers Organic Gardener Region: United States of America Cat Lover Birds
Hurray!
thanks, Al
Plant it and they will come.
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Dec 24, 2022 3:52 PM CST
Name: Sally
central Maryland (Zone 7b)
See you in the funny papers!
Charter ATP Member Frogs and Toads Houseplants Keeper of Poultry Vegetable Grower Region: Maryland
Composter Native Plants and Wildflowers Organic Gardener Region: United States of America Cat Lover Birds
Just re read most of this.

Any general comments about rainwater? I suppose its quality can vary as much as any other source. I try to use it always for my potted plants. I have tested with a pH strip and it seems close to neutral (acid rain being one worry I had briefly)
Plant it and they will come.
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Dec 25, 2022 3:59 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Al F.
5b-6a mid-MI
Knowledge counters trepidation.
Japanese Maples Deer Tropicals Seed Starter Overwinters Tender Plants Indoors Region: Michigan
Houseplants Foliage Fan Dog Lover Container Gardener Birds Wild Plant Hunter
@sallyg - Rainwater is naturally acidic because it contains dissolved carbon dioxide, which forms carbonic acid, which lowers uncontaminated rain to a pH of about 5.6. That's why, if you allow irrigation water for your plants to sit in a bucket overnight, much of the CO2 gasses of and the pH rises accordingly. It's also why you should make sure you DO allow the CO2 to gas off before you try to adjust your irrigation water to any specific pH, because it (CO2) will gas off when it's in the soil.

Rain with a pH lower than normal is called 'acid rain' and it occurs when mainly sulfur dioxide and nitrogen oxides in the air react with water and oxygen to form sulfuric and nitric acids, which can lower the pH of acid rain dramatically because it takes only a small volume of pollutants to make a large change in pH, this, because the buffering capacity of rain which is already naturally acidic is nearly nil. Buffering capacity is a measure of how resistant matter is to changes in pH when exposed to acids and bases.

The key factors here are - it takes a very small amount of acid to make a big change in uncontaminated rain pH because of it's low buffering capacity, and the much higher buffering capacity (resistance to pH change) of your grow medium will easily neutralize most of the acidic properties in the water. Keep in mind that the "ideal pH' for plants grown under conventional container culture is about a full point lower than for plants grown in mineral soil (in the ground/ earth) - say 5.5 instead of 6.5, e.g.. Because the pH scale is logarithmic, a pH of 5.5 is 10x more acidic than a pH of 6.5. On top of that, most fertilizers appropriate for use in conventional container culture would be acid-forming fertilizers that tend to counteract the upward push in pH from tapwater which contains Ca(lcium) or Mg (magnesium) carbonates.

I use a reverse osmosis filtration system (have it running right now) to make all the water I use for irrigating plants while they are indoors. It's buffering capacity is zero, and I use an acid-forming fertilizer (Foliage-Pro 9-3-6). If I don't use the r/o water, I must either acidify my tapwater (8.8 avg pH) or use an iron chelate made for high pH applications (Sprint 138), or else I see conspicuous Fe (iron) deficiencies. If I acidify the deficiency (and likely others not as conspicuous) goes away. Rainwater is a very good choice in almost all cases, even if only because of what it doesn't contain (chloramide/ chloramine, fluoride, carbonates).

Al
* Employ your time in improving yourself by other men's writings, so that you shall gain easily what others have labored hard for. ~ Socrates
* Change might not always bring growth, but there is no growth without change.
* Mother Nature always sides with the hidden flaw.
Last edited by tapla Dec 25, 2022 8:16 PM Icon for preview
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Dec 25, 2022 5:51 PM CST
Name: Sally
central Maryland (Zone 7b)
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Wonderful information!!! My rainwater has always sat in the barrel/bucket before I collect it. I didn't know how smart I was being using the rainwater, or why!
Plant it and they will come.
Avatar for tryintogrow
Jul 25, 2023 6:08 PM CST
Name: Sam
NJ (Zone 7a)
Very interesting read!
Thanks for the info tapla!

Regarding repotting vs potting up... do you have any videos or know of any videos that show the proper way to do this? A quick search on youtube showed a whole spectrum of opinions and methods, from literally sawing off anywhere from the bottom 1" to half the height of the rootbound soil and then plopping that onto a bed of new soil, to untangling the entire root mass (without cutting away any of the existing roots), hosing down all the soil, and then repotting. What you described seems sound, but a newbie like me needs some more detailed step-by-step instructions Smiling

Thanks!
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Aug 2, 2023 2:39 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Al F.
5b-6a mid-MI
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@tryintogrow Saw your message - sorry I missed your post.

I don't know of any videos I would put my trust in, but I can help with the process as I've repotted about 150 trees annually for the last 45 years, all of which have been full repots. The only way I would even consider potting up is if I didn't have time to do a repot on all the plants that needed it and I wanted at least some relief from the limitations imposed by root congestion. Then, I might pot up until the following spring (for temperate plants) and mark the plant as a priority so it goes to the front of the repotting line in the next spring.

Some plants lend themselves to being divided as opposed to being fully repotted. A plant you intend to repot will benefit from the repot at the point in time where the soil/root mass can be lifted from the pot intact. I typically start by using a pruning saw to remove the bottom 1/3-1/2 of the root system - often much more than that, but that's because I focus on bonsai and they are grown in very small volumes of soil. Then, I use a few tools to facilitate soil removal and rootwork. On the bottom row, the mallet is used to tap on the pot which really helps to settle the soil after the rootwork is complete. The saw, I already mentioned. The root rake and the root hook next to it combs soil out of the roots and untangles tangled and crossing roots. The white nylon tool is homemade and it used to tease the soil out of roots and to settle soil against the roots and push it into air pockets. The sickle helps to remove stubborn plants from pots when they are extremely root bound and the wooden stick is used for the same thing as the white stick I made. The tool on the right is a root pruning tool.
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So, I cut the bottom third to half of the root mass off, then comb out the roots at the perimeter of the soil/root mass. From that point forward, the roots must remain wet at all times. I usually work over a tub or have a hose end mister handy to both wet the roots and blast away soil. Once the plant is bare rooted, I'll prune off most of the large roots that aren't attached to the base of the trunk, and fix any circling/ girdling/ crossing/ j-hooked roots, and roots growing straight up, down, or back toward the center of the root mass. I then use a scissors to tidy up the roots mass and then pot the plant. If I'm using the gritty mix, I make sure the roots are very wet before I plant the tree in dry mix. As soon as the mix is settled against the roots and compressed a bit, I water right away so the roots have no chance to dry. Make sure you have everything assembled and ready to go when it comes time to add the soil - it shouldn't take more than 3-5 minutes to actually do the potting part.

If I'm using something other than the gritty mix (like the 5:1:1 mix), the soil needs to be damp. It takes a bit longer to settle the 5:1:1 mix into the roots and it's not good to risk using dry soil, in large part because the 5:1:1 mix is very hard to rewet when it's completely dry. To wet any medium that has turned hydrophobic (water-repellent), add put half as much soil as you think you'll need for the project at hand in a tub and add enough water to saturate the soil, then stir well. Add the rest of the dry soil and stir again. Allow to rest for 10 minutes while you work on the roots. The first half of the soil will be wet and saturated. When you mix the wet soil with the remaining soil, water and water vapor will diffuse into the dry particles in the second half of the soil, 'breaking' its tendency to be hydrophobic, so when you start the potting part, the soil will be moist and will readily absorb water.

After the repot is completed. It's best to secure the plant to the pot, so it can't move in relation to the pot. This helps the plant reestablish much faster than it would if it wasn't secured.
Ficus benjamina repot:
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Boxwood repot:
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Japanese maple:
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This particular tree was air layered off of it's seedling root system, which was lopsided and unbalanced. You can see it's still attached below the new roots that are perfectly balanced by design.
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Here ^^^ the original roots have been removed using a saw. The wire used as the constrictor for the layering method/process can still be seen.

Questions?

Al
* Employ your time in improving yourself by other men's writings, so that you shall gain easily what others have labored hard for. ~ Socrates
* Change might not always bring growth, but there is no growth without change.
* Mother Nature always sides with the hidden flaw.
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Aug 2, 2023 4:17 PM CST
Name: Lin Vosbury
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)

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@tapla Al, what a great tutorial!! Thumbs up Thumbs up Thumbs up
~ I'm an old gal who still loves playing in the dirt!
~ Playing in the dirt is my therapy ... and I'm in therapy a lot!


Avatar for tryintogrow
Aug 2, 2023 4:31 PM CST
Name: Sam
NJ (Zone 7a)
Thanks so much Al for that detailed explanation and accompanying pics!
I'll have to reread that a couple times to digest it, but will definitely post any questions I have after that!
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Aug 2, 2023 5:44 PM CST
Name: Tara
NE. FL. (Zone 9a)
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plantladylin said: @tapla Al, what a great tutorial!! Thumbs up Thumbs up Thumbs up


I agree! I have a Ming Aralia that has been in its container and calling for my attention, way too long! I had been anticipating that the root structure would be in need of a complete re pot. Your tutorial has confirmed much of what I had thought, and I'm feeling a bit more confident that I can do it! Thumbs up
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