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Sep 16, 2019 3:10 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Miguel DiMarca
Methuen, Massachusetts (Zone 6a)
I'm building a lean to attached greenhouse and I was interested in finding out peoples experience with a climate battery system I'm located in zone 6 Massachusetts and would like to hear people feedback on it. Thanks for the info ahead of time.
Also what glazing anyone has used in this climate 8mm or 16mm polycarbonate twinwall triwall ?
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Sep 16, 2019 3:43 PM CST
Name: Karen
New Mexico (Zone 8a)
Region: New Mexico Region: Arizona Region: Ukraine Cactus and Succulents Plant Identifier Plays in the sandbox
Greenhouse Bromeliad Adeniums Morning Glories Avid Green Pages Reviewer Brugmansias
Welcome! @MAD87! I'm not familiar with the type of greenhouse you're building, but I hope someone will come along who has done it. My greenhouse is a Growing Dome, and it is 16mm twin wall polycarb and here in NM I still have to heat it with a small electric heater to keep it no lower than 60 degrees. I grow tropicals and occasionally the heater couldn't keep up and it's been down to 55 degrees. The cost isn't very much, but it would have been nice to have one where I didn't have to heat it. I love the size yours will be! I'm looking forward to hearing more about your GH and please do share photos!
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Sep 16, 2019 5:35 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Miguel DiMarca
Methuen, Massachusetts (Zone 6a)
I have many tropical plants most people have probably not heard of citrus and they've been growing for 3 years outside then putting them in my garage with a heater in the winter and they've fruited in the pots lol
Colombian fruits
Avatar for BruceM2
Sep 16, 2019 6:15 PM CST

I'm a heretic. Climate battery is a gross misnomer. I designed and built a home with 2 foot of rock storage below the slab, with massive 600SF of hot air panel in a steep south roof circulated below slab, to avoid air quailty issues which all solar rock storage systems had. I insulated the stem walls with foam and foam skirt, but didn't put foam on the bottom. I had sensors buried at the bottom and top of my rock storage and monitored it for the 20 years I lived there. The earth is a endless heat sink by conduction, so without continued hot air input, in just 3 days it was gone, even if little or no house heating was required. (House had massive passive solar gain also.)

So while moist dirt can be used for thermal storage, unless you insulate the bottom and full sides of the storage area, it will be attempting to heat the planet. You earth temp in MA will be in the low 50s...and is a virtually endless heat sink at that temp. Yes, you can store some heat without it, but a dark stretch of 3 days or more will require supplemental heat.

The glazing losses are horrendous, so I'd rethink the design to have thermal shutters for the south glazing, and no glazing at all on the roof, preferably an R60 roof. There's no need for ceiling/roof glazing in Mass for a winter greenhouse, it's all loss and no gain. If the outside thermal insulting panels/shutters can double as hinged reflectors to increase the gain from the south facing glazing, all the better.

If you do some digging online, you will find that what data there is for hoop houses with very expensively done GHAT with deep side insulation into the earth shows that in just a few days without sun they are dipping into freezing. This is from losses from glazing and into the earth. Both are huge, though glazing is worse.

Save the money you thought you'd spend on Ghat, put it in insulating panels to cover your glazing at night and dark days. And add some ventilation to reduce winter overheating or if want to do solar heat collection and storage, and insulated water storage tank is far more effective. The thermal storage capacity of water is huge compared to dirt.

It's been proven for a small greenhouse, with good data collection by a retired engineer, now deceased. He collected excess heat via air to water heat exchanger and used the same to distribute the heat as needed at night. By not having the tank in greenhouse, and insulated it well, higher temperatures and thus more energy can be stored. Exposed barrels do the same thing but with limited capacity and only low temperatures.

As I said, I'm a heretic. But I got that way after operating what is essentially the same as GAHT or climate battery without insulation on the bottom. It will work as a modest short term storage system and a vast reservoir of mold and bacteria. It's NOT a "climate battery", more of a short term capacitor.

Best Wishes,
BruceM
Avatar for DaveV60be
Nov 5, 2019 6:14 PM CST

MAD87, I found an interesting thread here titled "Climate-Battery-GAHT-for-heating-a-greenhouse" you may like to read. There's a couple people with experience and some good insights I think.

I'm currently planning a winter greenhouse too and have been considering a GHAT system, but I've ruled it out. I agree with BruceM2, there are less expensive and better approaches. It looks to me like the earth beneath is not nearly good enough heat sync to offset the heat loss through any glaze, and in extended cloudy weather it won't be reliable. Another concern I have, is mold.

In my case, I've decided I will insulate the perimeter underground, but only down the the frost line, not the earth's core :). I'll also run some PEX tubing under the soils about a foot, so I can experiment with various water heat sources. If the PEX is ever in the way, I can just move it around.
Last edited by DaveV60be Nov 5, 2019 6:18 PM Icon for preview
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Feb 7, 2020 9:15 AM CST
Name: Mike
Easton, PA (Zone 6b)
Dahlias Greenhouse Native Plants and Wildflowers Orchids Region: Pennsylvania Region: United States of America
@mad87 I finally added some of my greenhouse build pictures to my photo gallery website.
Included are some pictures of the GAHT system before being buried.
BTW I am still very happy with the results, I have added a gas heater as I think I've mentioned and the combo of both is awesome.
http://www.hosking.org/gallery...
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Feb 7, 2020 8:19 PM CST
Name: James
Fabens,TX (Zone 8a)
Greenhouse Hibiscus Plumerias Roses
Mike, all I can say that was a lot of work. Wonderful pictures and a beautiful greenhouse. ENJOY
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Feb 8, 2020 10:54 AM CST
Name: Jim
Northeast Pennsylvania (Zone 6b)
Gardens feed my body, soul & spirit
Greenhouse Vegetable Grower Fruit Growers Seed Starter Canning and food preservation Region: Pennsylvania
Mike,

Beautiful website and I love your greenhouse!

Did you use the Ceres Greenhouse GAHT plans (https://ceresgs.com/climate-co...) or did you just design yours from research on the internet?

How deep below grade did you bury your gaht?

Great idea having a sink with drainboard right in your greenhouse.

I'm surprised you didn't insulate the knee wall for some more heat retention. Any reason not?

What brand is your greenhouse and what is the size?

It's a beauty, and so are your plants!

Jim
Some Video Collages of My Projects at Rumble. No longer YouTube
My PA Food Forest Thread at NGA
“The one who plants trees, knowing that he will never sit in their shade, has at least started to understand the meaning of life.” (Rabindranath Tagore)
Last edited by MoonShadows Feb 8, 2020 10:55 AM Icon for preview
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Feb 9, 2020 6:56 AM CST
Name: Mike
Easton, PA (Zone 6b)
Dahlias Greenhouse Native Plants and Wildflowers Orchids Region: Pennsylvania Region: United States of America
I did purchase Ceres plans, they also send a parts list with all the details so it was worth it if you consider the value of time.
As you can see in one of the pictures my son is standing on the footer an the ground level at that point is above his head so I'm guessing six or seven feet there. The end closest to the house is only about four or five feet deep.
Ceres plans call for the first level of pipe to be at four feet and the second level at two feet.
There is 4" of insulation on the entire perimeter of the foundation wall and most of the wall is below grade so it's well insulated.
With the added layer of Plexiglas on the walls and the double layer of twin wall on the ceiling it holds heat very well.
The company that sells the greenhouse is https://www.sturdi-built.com/ in Portland Oregon.
Greenhouse is 18 x 12 and almost 11 feet at the peek as I put a kit designed for a low knee wall on a high knee wall, they cut the lumber that goes above the doors long to allow for custom fit so I was able to accomplish this without any special engineering of my own. The knee wall is almost non existent on the south end viewing from outside but is just over 3' on the inside.
It sits 6' away from the house and I build a connecting structure between them that I call the potting shed which is not heated and allows me to store pots tools, soil and such without sacrificing valuable greenhouse space.
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Feb 9, 2020 12:26 PM CST
Name: Jim
Northeast Pennsylvania (Zone 6b)
Gardens feed my body, soul & spirit
Greenhouse Vegetable Grower Fruit Growers Seed Starter Canning and food preservation Region: Pennsylvania
Thanks for the thorough reply. You have one nice greenhouse you can be proud of and that meets your needs. I'm going to check out Sturdi-Built - looks like a very well-made greenhouse.
Some Video Collages of My Projects at Rumble. No longer YouTube
My PA Food Forest Thread at NGA
“The one who plants trees, knowing that he will never sit in their shade, has at least started to understand the meaning of life.” (Rabindranath Tagore)
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Feb 9, 2020 1:02 PM CST
Name: Mike
Easton, PA (Zone 6b)
Dahlias Greenhouse Native Plants and Wildflowers Orchids Region: Pennsylvania Region: United States of America
Yes they are, they have many different kits and can custom size any of them to your needs/specs.
I was always able to contact pre and post sale on the phone with questions and concerns as well.
Avatar for piorel
Nov 21, 2020 10:11 AM CST

Hi, guys! (This is a repost, couldn't find the previous one, maybe did not press finish)

I am planning to build a very small greenhouse (20 ft x 5.5 ft) in my backyard, facing mostly west and south.

I have been doing serious research on "GAHT" system over the past weeks and seen all the St. Isidore/Cerese/Verge Permaculture etc. videos on youtube on this thermal system. Also, I've read the ecosystem design faqs, ceres and verge permaculture info, also got their calculator. The most difficult part was converting form imperial to metric, as I live in Techirghil, Romania.

I intend to do the system myself, with help from local Phd shovel diggers. I think that ceres price is not ok for a system like this. It is a matter of principle, not money.

So, as I want to plant mostly tomatoes, peppers, zucchini and other vegetables and maybe a lemon tree and avocado tree.

Luckly, my climate is very similar to Mike's, in Easton, PA.

Based on Mike's very honest feedback on the "Gaht" system, I have big concerns on the efficiency of this system during winter, for a vegetables & fruit greenhouse.

I recall that both Mike and another forum member said that tomatoes are not able to grow during winter.

So, is the Gaht system efficient during winter? Or is it mandatory to help it with a more "traditional" heating system, for growing vegetables and fruits?

Thank you in advance!

*hope I did not missspelled anything
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