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Nov 3, 2020 7:42 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: Jos
Gent (Belgium) (Zone 8a)
Region: Europe
Hi everybody!

I want to introduce myself first.
My name is Jos, I'm a 31 year old plant enthusiast with a background in bio-engineering.
6 months ago I have started my own company growing and selling rare aroids for the EU market.
My goals are to expand my company to get involved in cultivation and hybridisation of these wonderful plants using the latest techniques.
As I am still learning everyday when it comes to the complexity of the aroid genus, this forum has been an important source of information (in compliment to the info on aroid.org)

I have been struggling a lot with correct determination of the plants we have in the nursery (and as I can read on the internet, I am not the only one).
I find it very important to be as transparant as possible to our customers and that's why we waiver on the product detail page if we are not sure about the exact determination of the plant.

However, we have 2 Anthuriums types in the nursery which were purchased as 'Veitchii' and 'Chamberlainum', but didn't quite look like those plants when arrived.

Yesterday I spent a vast amount of time trying to determine the plants, and I ended up with 'Moodeanum' and 'Chamberlainii aff'.
Yet I know this is likely not correct as both of those are very rare to find.

Can you help me to get a better determination?
Plant 1 (determined as Charmberlainii aff by me):
Thumb of 2020-11-03/JosBestBuds/0c9e55
Thumb of 2020-11-03/JosBestBuds/c8e133
Thumb of 2020-11-03/JosBestBuds/cfb1ae
Thumb of 2020-11-03/JosBestBuds/02c542
Thumb of 2020-11-03/JosBestBuds/60f490

Plant 2 (determined as Moodeanum by me):
Thumb of 2020-11-03/JosBestBuds/d0b9e2
Thumb of 2020-11-03/JosBestBuds/34bab8
Thumb of 2020-11-03/JosBestBuds/a47883

Plant 3 (determined as Moodeanum by me):
Thumb of 2020-11-03/JosBestBuds/456dc2
Thumb of 2020-11-03/JosBestBuds/d2fc71
Thumb of 2020-11-03/JosBestBuds/9c63d1

(looking at the pictures 2 and 3 are probably different plants too as the stem is quite different and so is the leaf shape)
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Nov 3, 2020 9:32 AM CST
Name: Gina
Florida (Zone 9a)
Tropical plant collector 40 years
Aroids Region: Florida Tropicals
From what I have read, Anthurium moodeanum is not available to anyone in the hobby today. It was found in cultivation in the collection of John Mood in Hawaii, and its origins are unknown. A specimen also exists at MOBOT.

Likewise, the plant Anthurium chamberlainii is also not available in the hobby today. There is a good article about this plant in Aroideana,Croat and Groeger, Vol 36E No 1, 2013 detailing the 'rediscovery' of the true Anthurium chamberlainii.

The plant original believed to have been Chamberlain was said to have come from Panama but there were no verification of this ever found. The plant was considered 'lost' since the late 19th century. The plant was 'rediscovered' in one small area in Venezuela in the state of Merida.

As far as anything I have ever read goes, no one really has either of these plants in the hobby. They look enough like these plants that they have been misidentified as these plants. So there is really no way to know what you have, they are another species or hybrids for sure but which one, I would not hazard a guess.
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Nov 3, 2020 12:34 PM CST
Name: Thomas
Western Europe
Region: Europe Aroids Ferns
Welcome. Can't help you with the identification, but it's good to have another 31 year old Dutch-speaking aroid enthusiast with a bio-engineering background here. Big Grin
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Nov 3, 2020 12:47 PM CST
Name: Gina
Florida (Zone 9a)
Tropical plant collector 40 years
Aroids Region: Florida Tropicals
You guys speak DUTCH? Too cool. I have Dutch Ancestors who came to the US in the early 1700's. Gerretje Grauw (the family name was later Americanized to Gray)
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Nov 4, 2020 2:53 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: Jos
Gent (Belgium) (Zone 8a)
Region: Europe
Yes, I'm from the Dutch ("Flemish") speaking part of Belgium.

My distributor located in Indonesia sent me pictures of the motherplant. The plants I got are grown from seeds.

Thumb of 2020-11-04/JosBestBuds/d8a61d
Thumb of 2020-11-04/JosBestBuds/58e532

They do look a lot like the official pictures of Chamberlainii.
I put them on the website as A. Chamberlainii aff.
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Nov 4, 2020 6:18 AM CST
Name: Gina
Florida (Zone 9a)
Tropical plant collector 40 years
Aroids Region: Florida Tropicals
Well, good luck. 'aff' is the most appropriate way to label them.

we were having this discussion on another site recently. A lot of us (myself included) hybridize our own Anthuriums. Or grow out bench crosses to see what we get. I myself maintain a 1740 sq ft greenhouse which is its own little ecosystem. I have a stream and a pond in there, and many many tree frogs and insects. The mother tree frogs lay eggs in the cups of my bromeliads and the little baby tadpoles hatch out. They are drawn to the insects that come to the receptive Anthurium spadices, and sometimes they pollinate my plants when they are crawling all over them eating bugs.

When some of the spadices on my plants are receptive, I try and pollinate them myself with pollen from an Anthurium in a compatible section. And sometimes, I pollinate the same spadix with pollen from more than one species. This is heavily frowned upon by 'purists'. But this is my own personal slice of my hobby. I do not intend to try and name these hybrids or register them. I just intend to GROW them. And if they are nice plants, I will trade and sell them ( I have a nursery license). But I will never try and pass them off as anything that I know they are not....which is a lot different from some people out there who are looking to make a buck. If I trade or sell, it will be clearly stated that 'X Anthurium is the ovule parent and the potential pollen parents were Y, Z and whoever.

Case in point, I pollinated my Anthurium forgetii with pollen from my Warocqueanum, my crystallinum, my papillilaminum, and this hybrid shown here (besseae x magnificum).

Thumb of 2020-11-04/Gina1960/e68f46
I got a spadix of seeds and they are starting to pop out seedlings now. Who knows what they will turn out to look like? I actually can't wait to see. And if any are extra special nice, I will be growing those and likely give them some small silly name of my own. Nothing official.

I also recently pollinated my clarinervium with warocqueanum. But it also had its own pollen on the spadix (clarinervium is to a large degree one of the self pollinating plants). So those seeds may produce different looking seedlings.

I have had some people who believe themselves to be extremely 'expert' about aroids tell me that I am 'setting the hobby back' by not keeping strict records of my crosses and trying to be 'pure' about it. These people tend to be self righteous stuffed shirts that believe they are always right about every aspect of aroid culture.

I have had other people (mainly Australians) say that probably 95% of all the pollinations in Australia are bench crosses carried out by insect and animal agents, and that it is unavoidable, undocumented crosses WILL BE MADE! So you might as well make your own when you want to.

So there are 2 schools of thought.

I believe that if, to the best of your knowledge, you are marketing something as truly as you know it and not attempting to deceive, there is no problem with it. 'Aff' meaning of course 'having an affinity with'. Its a great descriptor.

That mother plant in that photo is DA BOMB. If your seedlings turn out anything similar, people will snap them up just because of their beauty and not care about the purity.

I myself LOVE hybrids. I also love the pure forms of plants, and I am lucky to have several very old very pure unadulterated species in my collection. But seeing new things is what makes the hobby interesting.

Just look at what happened to the Pachyneuriums....somehow, every unknown bird nest in the world is called A. hookeri....when in fact, A. hookeri is a rare plant. But it has become a catch all phrase for anything that is unidentified. That is sad. And its perpetuated by people selling unknown hybrids as hookeri. Either knowingly, or unknowingly.
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Nov 4, 2020 6:30 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: Jos
Gent (Belgium) (Zone 8a)
Region: Europe
I couldn't agree with you more.

I always state on the website:
MPORTANT NOTE: It is notoriously difficult to determine whether Anthurium specimens are pure cultivars or hybridizations with close relatives. This can only be determined by either genetic analysis or microscopic investigation of the inflorescence. We determine our plants to the best of our knowledge. Either way, they are cute as hell.

And sometimes:
The determination of this Anthurium is unsure, if you have feedback on the determination, please let us know, so we can adjust accordingly.

Is there any chance (like 1%) that the pictured plants are actually Chamberlainii?
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Nov 4, 2020 6:59 AM CST
Name: Gina
Florida (Zone 9a)
Tropical plant collector 40 years
Aroids Region: Florida Tropicals
I am not expert enough to answer that. In fact, I am not expert at all. My qualifications in the plant world are that I am about to get Medicare soon and have been growing and collecting for almost 40 years...I do research and read a lot about things though, and I have been a member of the International Aroid Society on and off for years.

It is possible that the plant is what you think. The reason I say that is....

There are a few American ex-pats who live in a couple South American countries...and they collect (not plants, or at least I HOPE they are not filching plants from the wild) but berries from indigenous species and grow them. And they do sell plants, they sell quite a few to people here in the US who import and resell. (and they call piddly little backyard growers like ME bad for the hobby?) It is always possible someone may have collected seed from them and grown them out. Knowing (or NOT knowing) what they are.
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