Okay, thank you.

So, how can a person find out which plants are safe, then? (Without, I hope, getting into the whole question of what "safe" means... I mean, safe as in having not been so treated with persistent toxins.)

Is it necessary only to buy plants that are certified organic? Or is there a more direct route to finding out what we need to know?

I did hear from this local garden center that a nursery that ships across state lines has to disclose what they have used on the plants. But for a consumer to get that information sounds difficult indeed.

Kyla, be aware that "organic" plants may also have pesticides on them. As a person who raises caterpillars, I have to be careful with all plants. This is because the BT spray that is used to kill caterpillars is an organic pesticide. BT is the short name for Bacillus thuringiensis, a naturally occurring bacteria that kills caterpillars. So a nursery could say they only use "organic" methods of pesticide, you buy the host plant, and it kills all your caterpillars.

Pyrethrins are also a class of insecticides that are derived from the seemingly harmless Chrysanthemum plant. Not sure if these get advertised as organic or not, but they could be.

Frankly, I'm always a little suspicious of host plants that don't have caterpillars or eggs on them. Or at least evidence of chewing. Some growers will grow these plants in covered greenhouses so they may say that's why there's not caterpillars and such. I've just found that my favorite nurseries are the ones where the caterpillars are happily munching away. Plus, I get bonus caterpillars to bring home! It's not as easy to tell with nectar plants, of course, but there's my two cents. Hope I helped add something to the discussion.

Thank you. Is the BT persistent?

There are organic-certified plants in a few markets here -- herb plants mostly. I'll have to get the name of that grower and see what I can find out.

It's beginning to sound like if I want to create a garden that actually supports butterflies, etc., I would need to start all my own plants from seed, or get them from people with similar requirements. In other words, that it is not safe to buy plants at a store, period.

I'm still hoping for a work-around of some kind on this one. I have a neighbor who raised this question with me initially and I am passing on what I find to her also.

I think the BT must fade over time because I know many people on here who recommend quarantining the plants for a couple of weeks and rinsing them thoroughly several times before planting them. To be fair, I've never had the first problem buying milkweed from Home Depot. Most of my host plants are such specialized plants with a narrow market that I have to mail order them or buy them from clubs. We're lucky here to have such a great chapter of the Florida Native Plant Society. The USF Botanical Gardens hosts two big plant sales (as well as some smaller ones) in the spring and fall. The fall one is coming up in October! The Native Plant Society always has a big booth full of native plants that I think are grown mostly by their members. I've gotten many host plants from them with no problems. They even have signs in front of each plant giving basic info like the name, growing tips, and also if it's a host plant or nectar plant, or if it attracts hummingbirds. So they're well aware of people like me buying the plants for those reasons.

I've also had good luck buying organic parsley from the grocery store (Publix, down here in FL) when I ran out of food for my Black Swallowtails. I knew I was taking a chance the first time I did it, but they would have starved to death otherwise.

I think the best advice is probably to go to local nurseries vs the big box stores simply because the local growers have way more knowledge about their plants. I think everyone on this website has a story about buying plants at HD or Lowe's. The local nurseries can probably answer your questions much more accurately. I don't want to demonize the big box stores; I have made the occasional find of a host plant there and like I said, I've had to restock on milkweed before. My biggest problem is seeing the same old plants time after time, and not being able to find the natives I want to plant. Also, look to see if you have any plant societies or gardening clubs that have sales in your area. You can usually get better deals and you get people who are wildly passionate and knowledgeable about the plants.

Great advice Melanie!

Thanks, Tara! And thanks for the acorn!

My economics degree is nagging at me to add that every dollar you spend at a local business circulates three times as much in your community as a dollar you spend at a corporate entity not based in your community. So you can help the environment both ecologically and financially when you shop at local nurseries. And really, I love buying from the clubs. I hustle as fast as I can to the Bromeliad Guild booth at those plant sales. Great prices and plants you won't find anywhere else!

Well, yes, exactly so, about the local businesses. I have been supporting this local garden center for that reason and also because I really like the family who run it and personally detest having to shop at Lowes or whatever.

So, okay, I am not going to have a concern about BT, or about organic certified plants. I am hoping caterpillars will join the party but I am not preparing to specially raise them, only wanting to have an actually healthy garden.

But with the issue of the persistent pesticides, shopping locally doesn't seem to be a sufficient solution.

My housemate/cousin wants to go to a local place that grows hostas, which she has enjoyed shopping at in the past, and get some more plants from them. She is asking me, now, how to find out whether their plants are safe.

I don't know much about hostas (I know there is a hosta forum here and have only briefly glanced at it.) I don't know if hostas are particularly attractive to bees and butterflies to begin with! So, I'm feeling a bit confused here.

Would you, whomever here is committed to a butterfly and bee friendly garden, say go ahead and get those local hostas? Would you investigate and try to find out what the growers use or don't use?

I don't mean to be pushy here but I'm still trying to find my way with this situation -- knowing everyone has a bit of a different set of priorities etc.

Kyla, you're on the butterflies, birds, and bees forum so most of us garden for exactly those things. The only thing I know about hostas is I think they attract slugs. And most people seem to grow them for their foliage as I've rarely seen blooms. You might actually want to hop on over to the hosta forum and see what they think about all this. I don't know that hostas are a big insect attractant so it would seem to me like it wouldn't really matter if they were treated with pesticides or not. Preferably, they would not, but I'm just not sure it would have the same impact as if all milkweed were treated with pesticides. One is a known host plant for a butterfly, the hostas I think attract deer but I'm not sure if pesticides affect deer anyway. I'm not really sure why your friend is so adamant that hostas be pesticide-free unless I'm missing something here. Unless these are genetically modified hostas, wouldn't any pesticides fade away over time, anyway?

And I'd also add that I believe Hosta are a shade loving plant? Not certain, because I don't grow them...I do know that any "butterfly" gardening that you would do would be full sun...As far as I know, Hosta wouldn't be in one, in a full sun garden.

Very good, thanks. As for the shade/sun issue, we have a whole strip in mostly shade but the entire rest of the place is full sun or nearly full sun.

And oh my yes hostas do bloom. We drove by a bed of them covered in gorgeous white tubular flowers. We have a few blooms now in our yard.


(Edit: That was taken on a full sun day! but as I said, they do grow in the deeply shaded part and this picture came out almost as though it was taken at night.)
But I know they are mostly grown for foliage. Here, slugs are not such a great issue.

Thanks again, you've all been very helpful.

FWIW, white Hosta flowers usually smell like Gardenia/Jasmine! They don't get enough credit for being one of the best smelling flowers that just about anybody with a little piece of shade can grow. Plant it and forget it until the blooms show up. Then sniff often, they don't last long! I don't recall a bee ever being in my way when attempting to sniff, but they do make seeds, something's visiting those flowers.

Here's the source I use for my bee plants:
http://www.mowildflowers.net/ Missouri Wildflowers Nursery in Jefferson City, Mo.
They do ship, and the plants are excellent. I think the prices are very fair, and the selection is incredible for butterfly and bee habitat!
I order from them every year, and the native plant arboreteum near me buys from them.
Cindi

Thanks much, Tiffany and Cindi. We're definitely growing hostas, and I'll check out that nursery too. I'm intending to do a lot of wintersowing this year but it's great to have a good source for plants. I wish I could find a local source, but may not be able to.

Okay...I need some info..not regarding use of sprays, but GMO ornamentals. Truthfully, I have not given thought to GMO ornamentals, but it was mentioned to me yesterday by a neighbor who grows quite a bit of salvia elegans (Pineapple Sage) for the hummers, that she shouldn't be growing that because it is GMO or genetically engineered and that's what's killing the bees......

Now, I had not worried about GMO ornamentals....can anyone enlighten me as to the veracity of this?
TIA

Here's some good news: A big nursery in the Pacific Northwest has decided to stop using neonicitinoids entirely, all because of gardener and customer concern.

http://northcoastgardening.com...

When we keep asking growers and nurseries "Do you use that neonicitinoid that kills bees?" it seems we do have an effect!

I always tell people that voting with your dollars is often more effective than actually voting for elected officials. Businesses get the message pretty quick when their revenue streams drop or you go to their competitors instead. If we waited for Congress to pass a bill on this, imagine how long we'd be waiting! But tell a nursery that you're not going to buy plants that have been poisoned and are instead shopping at the organic nursery down the street - that gets results!

Ah, yes! I just wish there WERE a nice organic nursery down the street! There IS one, but it's at least a couple hours away!

Well, even if you have to mail order, I would tell them that. One of my favorite places to order plants is www.mailordernatives.com They're located in north Florida but have a great variety of native plants including many host plants for my butterflies. One really good thing about the internet is that it has created more competition and access to plants we would never have had years ago. Especially when you start to get really specialized like how I need specific butterfly host plants. I have no problem telling a nursery, "I really wish you sold (this host plant) but you don't so I guess I'll buy it online." Anything to light a fire underneath them!

@wcgypsy, there are no GMO ornamental plants.

These are the only GMO plants to date:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G...

To grow GMO plants, one has to sign a contract.