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Jun 23, 2014 6:00 PM CST
Garden.org Admin
Name: Trish
Grapevine, TX (Zone 8a)
I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar Charter ATP Member Region: Texas Roses Herbs Vegetable Grower
Composter Canning and food preservation Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle Organic Gardener Forum moderator Hummingbirder
And the same response to a trader with trades gone wrong?

Its even harder to raise gentle red flags, as trades are often done completely privately.

To be clear- I am not advocating either way. Just pointing out that there are definite pros and cons to either option.
NGA COO, Wife, Mom, and do-er of many fun things.
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Jun 23, 2014 9:06 PM CST
Name: Tina
Where the desert meets the sea (Zone 9b)
Container Gardener Salvias Dog Lover Birds Enjoys or suffers hot summers Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
Garden Ideas: Level 2
Having never participated in a co-op, I'm not sure whether they are managed by sellers or interested buyers, but either way it seems like a money-for-goods exchange? With a direct exchange of money, by definition participants are more like sellers and buyers, or designated agents for sellers and buyers (formally or informally, as it may be). A price is set, or a range, and potential co-op/buyers provide funds for goods. With trading, it seems unlikely that an exchange of plants would occur between a garden grower and a commercial grower or seller. So, selling or co-op buying seems to be much more of an economically regulated and accepted form for exchanging goods for money. That gives control to the sellers, who can wait until funds are provided, but who may or may not deliver "the goods." It can be very difficult for a buyer to recoup those funds if something goes wrong when the transaction is done in an informal selling environment. In that transaction scheme, it makes sense to provide public feedback to protect both buyers and sellers, at least as far as is expected from feedback mechanisms.

In a trade, however, there is less risk of loss of funds other than mailing costs and, in a way, some less risk for the loss of goods, since it is assumed that traders are exchanging excess garden material that would not be sold in any other circumstance. Where that could go wrong, of course, is if one side never sends the agreed upon exchange, or if there are other disappointments that are not anticipated or settled before a trade is complete. For those who are new to it, informal trades can be a great big learning experience (was for me!), so outcomes, even when done in the best of faith, may be less sure or less than what is expected from sellers. My own personal experience has been that trades are completely different than co-op/buys, and involve an entirely different relationship. In my case, I was quite overwhelmingly advantaged by my trader's generosity - and the trade quite literally changed my life in a most profoundly positive way. For anyone, trades can be an equal opportunity for informal gardeners to enhance each other's variety of plants, and perhaps the process could be helped by providing trader's private recommendations for important steps to take, best practices to follow, pitfalls to avoid, and could be developed and contributed to by those who have experience doing trades. Doing an informal, private trade was the best gardening experience I have ever had, and it spurred me on to becoming an even better buyer, hopefully a better and more successfully generous trader in future, and certainly a more educated, dedicated, contented, and grateful gardener.

For those reasons, it makes sense to me that co-op buyers and sellers - anyone exchanging plants for currency - who in effect are sellers and buyers no matter what title they may go by, more understandably need some mechanism for public feedback; the imbalance is wide enough to call for it. Traders, though, working along the lines of re-distributing extra plants (with no intention of selling otherwise) that are then replaced in their own informal gardens by plants or fans kept back, also focus on those extra plants or fans that otherwise might just as well end up in the recycling bin due to any number of garden-based reasons.

With recommendation-based drop-down boxes included in a trade list, offering a way for people to become aware of steps that should be taken and can be supported within the trades list grid, it would seem to me that informal goods-for-goods trades could remain up to traders to navigate with limited risk. Options for drop-down designators might include recording references sought and received through tree-mail, itemizing the equalization of general trade value or tracking agreed-upon trade imbalances if desired, time-allotments for prepping and evaluating plants to be sent, maybe even a section to formally note mutually set limits on the number of items in a first-time trade, especially in cases where traders have not established a relationship of trust or outside recommendations first, etc.

Just some informal thoughts that occurred as I've enjoyed reading about the ways that these seemingly different types of exchanges might be structured to facilitate member interactions. It makes sense to me that money-for-goods, non-negotiated exchanges would be handled in a different way than goods-for-goods, negotiated trades. Especially if there were indications provided through something like a drop-down box for recommended steps to be taken within a trade from ATP lists. If that were the case, responsibility would fall to each party in a trade to ensure their own good results, with the least risk taken. Setting an indelible "rating" on trader's learning curves, non-seller mistakes, unavoidable family or real-life events or delays, etc., seems awkward at best when there is no money being exchanged, and only "extra" materials being made available informally. Wouldn't drop-down boxes, or even a prominent link to advice on steps to take from successful traders, make it more likely that each new trade would be entered into (and conducted) with the intention that, rather than grading performance, traders learn together how to build a relationship for sharing otherwise-to-be-discarded goods? For me, it comes down to commercially sold items being distinct and different than trades of private surplus plants, and I'd love to see the latter remain negotiated in the privacy of informal relationships, perhaps supported by recommended steps which could effectively reduce or negate the need for public feedback.
Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of old; seek what those of old sought. — Basho

Daylilies that thrive? click here! Thumbs up
Last edited by chalyse Jun 23, 2014 10:20 PM Icon for preview
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Jun 23, 2014 9:50 PM CST
Name: josephine
Arlington, Texas (Zone 8a)
Hi Everybody!! Let us talk native.
Native Plants and Wildflowers Organic Gardener Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Butterflies Garden Ideas: Master Level Forum moderator
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database. Charter ATP Member Plant Identifier Birds Cat Lover
I only trade and give away plants at Roundups also known as R.U. This is where people get together and exchange, trade
or give away plants previously arranged on line.
I hate shipping plants, although I have sent seeds to people many times. Smiling
Wildflowers are the Smiles of Nature.
Gardening with Texas Native Plants and Wildflowers.
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Jun 24, 2014 10:20 AM CST
So Cal (Zone 10b)
Cat Lover Forum moderator Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Level 1
I feel that Chalyse really hit it on the head. Feedback is necessary in the commercial arena where hard earned cash is exchanged for goods (a Thumbs up to the Green Pages) but it feels very different when applied to the private arena of trading. I can even see adding co-ops to the Green Pages as they are more closely related to a commercial enterprise than to a trade. Also, her idea of education through menus/drop downs makes a lot of sense. Perhaps there could be a tutorial drawn and posted somewhere with all of the dos, don'ts, etc.

The "co-op gone bad" mentioned previously is a difficult one. To allow negative feedback in that scenario would be odd/inconsistent with the rest of this site as the co-op would then be held to a higher standard than a regular vendor. Currently, a regular vendor is allowed to receive positive remarks or nothing at all.

If you believe that there absolutely needs to be a way to protect new traders, perhaps a "trader badge" type of system would work better than an overall "rank/grade the members" idea (Greene made some excellent points in regard to grading the overall membership above). The badge could designate those people who frequently trade and are willing to produce references if requested. But... it seems to me that you really have already covered this ground by allowing us to note within our plant lists if plants are available for trade.

I may be reading way too much into all of this but I must ask. Are there a lot of "trades gone wrong" occurring on this site? If so, I would see the need for more proactive measures. If not, I like the way it is now - more neighborly, warm and family-oriented.
"In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." -Abraham Lincoln
Last edited by OldGardener Jun 24, 2014 10:20 AM Icon for preview
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Jun 24, 2014 10:59 AM CST
Garden.org Admin
Name: Dave Whitinger
Southlake, Texas (Zone 8a)
Region: Texas Seed Starter Vegetable Grower Tomato Heads Vermiculture Garden Research Contributor
Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level Region: Ukraine Garden Sages
I don't know about many (or any) trades that have gone really bad but maybe I'm not in the loop on all of that.
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Jun 24, 2014 11:06 AM CST
So Cal (Zone 10b)
Cat Lover Forum moderator Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Level 1
Then I vote not to change what is not broken. A trade tracker (and education as Chalyse suggested) would be a cool tool to have but grading members... not so much. I think it could be very off-putting for a new member to participate in their very first trade(s) knowing that they will be "graded" on their performance.
"In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." -Abraham Lincoln
Last edited by OldGardener Jun 24, 2014 11:08 AM Icon for preview
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Jun 24, 2014 1:01 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Sandy
Mont Belvieu, TX 77580 (Zone 9b)
Hibiscus I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Composter Charter ATP Member Bee Lover Tropicals
Plant and/or Seed Trader Region: Texas Plumerias Lilies Irises Hummingbirder
A co-op like the one I did was to buy Atlas Gloves for the cheapest price possible and everyone who took part got the same price as I did. In the co-op I do not remember how much money I collected but I purchased 724 pair of gloves. Yes co-op like trades I have been in have gone bad. Some on the part of the host/hostess and some because of unforeseeable circumstances.

As for traders what about the ones who don't feel comfortable telling who they traded with? I have not traded on here yet but have been burnt on another site. Feedback is for the trade it's self not whether you water too much, or not enough and the plant doesn't live. It is about did you receive what you traded for, did you receive your end, Did you send your part? It is not did I get the right plant as newbies may think it was right.
It is about did you get anything at all or did they not send it.

I would still rather see someone have feedback than contact people to see it they did trade and were they happy. I can't see anyone being afraid they may get bad feedback unless they did something wrong. And like I said it is about the trade and not about whether you kept them alive. If that was the case I would have left alot of bad feedback because I did try but have killed alot of plants. Goes the same for a few co-ops I have been in.

How many of you buy on eBay? Do you check feedback? I know I do. I also read them as some will put positive and then say something negative because they hate to say something bad about someone but put it in the comments. I do check another site's feedback before I send and decide from there how to proceed. If no feedback I ask for their end first, if bad feedback I will not trade unless they send first, and if good feedback I don't have a problem. Wouldn't you want to know if I got burned so you don't? Oh well more negative remarks here than positive.
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Jun 24, 2014 3:31 PM CST
Name: Tina
Where the desert meets the sea (Zone 9b)
Container Gardener Salvias Dog Lover Birds Enjoys or suffers hot summers Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
Garden Ideas: Level 2
Have you maybe answered your own question and concerns quite elegantly? Group hug Even a feedback button or recommendations from people you do not (or do) know cannot really tell you if you will get items in any trade for sure. Even face-to-face trades may be for plants that the original owner thinks are correctly labeled, but may be mistaken about (stuff happens...). But you will always have the answer to when and how you will be satisfied with a trade:

By requiring out front that you specifically are interested in a trade only if you can receive your side of the trade first you are ensuring that both you and they are agreeable to that structure in trading. There are all sorts of "deal-breaker" negotiations that can unfold as trades are offered, made, and completed. That seems to always be a part of the self-regulating nature of informal, non-monetary, and surplus goods trade process. Very different than ebay or coops or other monetary buys .... but then, they are such different relationships.
Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of old; seek what those of old sought. — Basho

Daylilies that thrive? click here! Thumbs up
Last edited by chalyse Jun 24, 2014 4:04 PM Icon for preview
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Jun 29, 2014 4:18 PM CST
Name: Linda Williams
Medina Co., TX (Zone 8a)
Organic Gardener Bookworm Enjoys or suffers hot summers Charter ATP Member Salvias Herbs
Bluebonnets Native Plants and Wildflowers Lover of wildlife (Raccoon badge) Forum moderator Purslane Hummingbirder
I don't really trade much anymore, so it probably won't matter to me personally. But IF there is a feedback system, it would be meaningless to only have positive feedback enabled. And who would email anyone "references" from previous trades? That sounds like too much bother!
I would feel more optimistic about a bright future for man if he spent less time proving that he can outwit Nature and more time tasting her sweetness and respecting her seniority. E. B.White
Integrity can never be taken. It can only be given, and I wasn't going to give it up to these people. Gary Mowad
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Jun 29, 2014 6:45 PM CST
Name: greene
Savannah, GA (Sunset 28) (Zone 8b)
I have no use for internet bullies!
Avid Green Pages Reviewer Keeper of Poultry Vegetable Grower Rabbit Keeper Frugal Gardener Garden Ideas: Master Level
Plant Identifier Region: Georgia Native Plants and Wildflowers Composter Garden Sages Bookworm
I agree I mean, who eat at a restaurant where only positive ratings were allowed? How would we know which restaurant has bad food and bad service?
Sunset Zone 28, AHS Heat Zone 9, USDA zone 8b~"Leaf of Faith"
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Jun 29, 2014 6:51 PM CST
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
Who rates their dinners at friends houses? I have eaten meals at friends and if I liked the food or not, positive feedback is all they got from me, not the same as eating at a restaurant in my opinion.
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Jun 29, 2014 7:12 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Sandy
Mont Belvieu, TX 77580 (Zone 9b)
Hibiscus I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Composter Charter ATP Member Bee Lover Tropicals
Plant and/or Seed Trader Region: Texas Plumerias Lilies Irises Hummingbirder
I also think it would be good for coop hostesses to check feedback or be able to leave not so positive "like didn't follow thru." If you don't do anything wrong why would you worry about bad feedback.

No I wouldn't tell my friends their food was bad but how many of you read reviews before buying something? How many check feedback on eBay before you purchase? Why should this be any different?

I know I haven't bought from a few co-ops because I do not know them and may not been around for long. I have been around 11+ years with Dave and Trish. But how many of you know me?

I will always be in favor of feedback. If you don't do anything wrong you have nothing to worry about.
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Jun 29, 2014 7:38 PM CST
Name: Debra
Garland, TX (NE Dallas suburb) (Zone 8a)
Rescue dogs: Angels with paws needi
Dragonflies Dog Lover Bookworm I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Photography Bee Lover
Plays in the sandbox Butterflies Region: Texas Garden Sages I sent a postcard to Randy! Charter ATP Member
I have only been reading these exchanges because I am not strongly in favor one way or the other. Like Trish, I can see pros and cons to both viewpoints. Been an interesting discussion. Jumped in here to just offer a comment, Sandy, on this last post. It is not in any way intended to disagree with you, only to add information. Worked at my last company for 10 years, which received a majority of its income from eBay sales. We racked up 200,000+ feedbacks during the time I was there. My personal eBay account has 400+ feedbacks, about half of which are from sales. I can tell you for sure and certain there will always be that one person to whom it makes no difference if you did something wrong or not. They aren't satisfied for some reason--might not even be a rational reason to anyone else--and will take the most publicly punitive way to make that dissatisfaction known. I guess I am saying that any co-op buy or trade has an element of gambling to it no matter which way you go or how many precautions you take. Up to the individual to decide if the gamble is worth the gain. Smiling
It’s okay to not know all the answers.
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Jun 29, 2014 7:46 PM CST
So Cal (Zone 10b)
Cat Lover Forum moderator Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Level 1
ilovejesus99 said:
I will always be in favor of feedback. If you don't do anything wrong you have nothing to worry about.


Unfortunately, people give poor feedback for many reasons and sometimes those reasons are not valid. I think that even you mentioned above that you received unfair negative feedback on ebay.

ATP's Green pages are based on positive recommendations only - no negative reviews are allowed - and those are commercial enterprises. Would it really make sense to allow negative feedback, then, for trades? I thought Dave (and please correct me, Dave, if I am wrong) was trying to keep ATP consistent across the board. For that reason alone, is it reasonable to make traders adhere to a more stringent review policy than a company?
"In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." -Abraham Lincoln
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Jun 30, 2014 8:29 AM CST
Garden.org Admin
Name: Trish
Grapevine, TX (Zone 8a)
I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar Charter ATP Member Region: Texas Roses Herbs Vegetable Grower
Composter Canning and food preservation Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle Organic Gardener Forum moderator Hummingbirder
OldGardener said:
... I thought Dave (and please correct me, Dave, if I am wrong) was trying to keep ATP consistent across the board. For that reason alone, is it reasonable to make traders adhere to a more stringent review policy than a company?



I'm not 100% sure what you mean by that, but I'm thinking you mean that because the Green Pages are positive only comments, that we would have to make the trade comments positive only for the sake of consistency.

This would not necessarily be the case. We never want to put ourselves in a box that doesn't allow for flexibility just because it doesn't match a different feature. That's not good for the long haul. Features need be built based on how it is going to be used and our long term goals for the site. Putting all options on the table is how we roll. Smiling

For now, I would say that this feature request is going to hang out on the shelf for the time being. Thumbs up
NGA COO, Wife, Mom, and do-er of many fun things.
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Jun 30, 2014 8:57 AM CST
So Cal (Zone 10b)
Cat Lover Forum moderator Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Level 1
Trish said:
I'm not 100% sure what you mean by that, but I'm thinking you mean that because the Green Pages are positive only comments, that we would have to make the trade comments positive only for the sake of consistency.


Yes, that is what I meant Smiling

Trish said:For now, I would say that this feature request is going to hang out on the shelf for the time being. Thumbs up


Do you think we could get the trade tracker *only* implemented? I think that an app that an individual could use to keep personal records would be a great feature!

Again, thank you so much for letting me dream big nodding
"In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." -Abraham Lincoln
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Jun 30, 2014 9:14 AM CST
Name: greene
Savannah, GA (Sunset 28) (Zone 8b)
I have no use for internet bullies!
Avid Green Pages Reviewer Keeper of Poultry Vegetable Grower Rabbit Keeper Frugal Gardener Garden Ideas: Master Level
Plant Identifier Region: Georgia Native Plants and Wildflowers Composter Garden Sages Bookworm
Back on this thread's Post #644044 to me it appears that Dave wants positive only feedback, or did I read that incorrectly?
Sunset Zone 28, AHS Heat Zone 9, USDA zone 8b~"Leaf of Faith"
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Jun 30, 2014 9:45 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: Sandy
Mont Belvieu, TX 77580 (Zone 9b)
Hibiscus I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Composter Charter ATP Member Bee Lover Tropicals
Plant and/or Seed Trader Region: Texas Plumerias Lilies Irises Hummingbirder
Greene I think that was only a thought Dave had and not written in stone.

I am an honest person and I believe that anyone wanting to see why I would leave negative feedback could follow my posts, feedback that I receive and see I wouldn't be posting even a little negative unless it is true. It is not to make me look good but to warn the next trader. Credibility of the poster can be tracked in the forums as to whether I left it to be making someone look bad.

Thanks Trish for just placing on the shelf and not tossing it.

Just so I am clear why just positive feedback for businesses if I may ask
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Jun 30, 2014 10:07 AM CST
So Cal (Zone 10b)
Cat Lover Forum moderator Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Level 1
ilovejesus99 said:
Just so I am clear why just positive feedback for businesses if I may ask


Dave addressed this here (bottom of page): The thread "Gardening Recommendations" in Site Talk forum
"In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." -Abraham Lincoln
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Jun 30, 2014 11:38 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: Sandy
Mont Belvieu, TX 77580 (Zone 9b)
Hibiscus I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Composter Charter ATP Member Bee Lover Tropicals
Plant and/or Seed Trader Region: Texas Plumerias Lilies Irises Hummingbirder
OK I see it but I also see it is recommendations and not actual feedback. I also see that phase 2 will include individual members. I see this as totally different than feedback. I do love this feature but don't see where it says this feature is done this way to keep us from saying negative things. I see it as we are recommending not you have a choice.

I could recommend olive garden because I ate there but when ask to recommend doesn't mean tell you the places I wouldn't eat at. Am I missing something where Dave says I won't allow negative so I will use the word recommend so to keep anyone from saying negative? My idea is if it says recommend it means recommend and not I am leaving out the chance for you to say anything negative. Or is that said somewhere else?

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