Superb blooms
Why don't we see these in catalogs

critterologist said:Amazing -- both the patience (and steady hands) required to pluck all those pollen-laden florets and the resulting blooms! I admire your organized approach, too. For sure, you are taking these flowers where no zinnia has ever gone before!

Hi Jill,
Thanks for your kind words. However, I don't deserve a lot of credit for patience (or steady hands) for doing my hand pollinations. I am always kind of excited and motivated by the possibilities of the new cross I am making, and it isn't very time consuming or difficult.

Zinnia florets and the stigmas at the base of the petals are both fairly large and accessible, and a single loaded pollen floret can hold enough pollen to pollinate several stigmas. It's a repetitive dab, dab, dab process and you are creating new hybrid seeds at nearly a seed a second! From the standpoint of the mechanics, the pollination process is a relatively minor part of that. Mechanics-wise, hoeing weeds takes the lions share of my time. And, when the blooms start to appear, culling takes precedence.

critterologist said:For sure, you are taking these flowers where no zinnia has ever gone before!

I suspect that zinnias have gone many exotic places before. I know for a fact that other zinnias growers have had tubular petaled zinnias, but simply didn't notice or save seeds from them. All of my key mutant zinnias came from commercial packets of zinnia seeds. The humble little wildflowers from which all of our present day zinnias were developed do not represent the totality of past zinnias. I strongly suspect that there were exotic prehistoric zinnias that flourished when climates and conditions were more to their liking. The intricacies of the zinnia DNA spirals may hold many hidden surprises and ancient secrets, just waiting to be discovered. Making hybrids between hybrids is one way to explore what zinnias can do.

I spend the majority of my time in the zinnia patch just relaxing in a movable folding-reclining lawn chair, with a drink on a small side table, and "taking it all in". It's very pleasant to see the clouds of butterflies fluttering from bloom to bloom, to see and hear the many kinds of bees busily gathering nectar, and watch the hummingbirds do their amazing maneuvers over and about the blooms. Daydreaming, reminiscing, thinking over plans, and the occasional dozing off come naturally. That is the Zen dimension of gardening that I so enjoy.

ZM

luvsgrtdanes said:Superb blooms
Why don't we see these in catalogs

Hi Ronnie,
Good question. Maybe in a few years some of them will show up in catalogs. We just have to develop a good supply of some stabilized amateur seed stocks, and attract the attention of some of the seed companies to "make us an offer we can't refuse".

ZM

ZenMan said:Hi Keith,
I do my pollination in the morning as the pollen florets open and I use tweezers or forceps to pick the pollen florets and use them as "brushes" to apply the pollen to the stigmas. So there is nothing left for the bees on my breeders. Bees are only interested in pollen florets, and are not the least bit interested in a zinnia bloom that doesn't have any pollen florets remaining.

Bees weren't an issue on that onion zinnia because it grew indoors. Some onion flowered zinnias consist of floret-petals that contain their own functional pollen and stigmas, so they normally self themselves just like the conventional pollen florets produce a selfed floret seed, with no need for intervention.

Bees aren't the least bit interested in doing any pollination. They are gathering nectar for use as food. Any pollination they do is purely accidental. The crosses I make are targeted, and I would notice any "natural" pollination when the hybrids bloomed out. I very rarely see a hybrid zinnia that suggested natural pollination. If a bee accidentally made the same cross I was doing, then I wouldn't see that. I have done a lot of pollination and cross pollination of zinnias over the years, and I have never felt it necessary to bag my female zinnias to prevent bee pollination. I have on occasion used "hair nets" to prevent seed eating birds from accessing a seedhead. But the bees and I get along just fine together in the zinnia patch.

This is another example of a near spherical zinnia bloom.

A sphere is not a particularly interesting flower shape, but it is not a usual zinnia bloom.

ZM

I was going to say some of the ball shaped flowers seem to not have seperate male/female parts so you can't really cross pollinate them. Some of your others seemed to be missing either the male or female part.

keithp2012 said:I was going to say some of the ball shaped flowers seem to not have seperate male/female parts so you can't really cross pollinate them. Some of your others seemed to be missing either the male or female part.

Hi Keith,
You are very observant and correct. Both of the ball shaped zinnias do lack separate male and female parts, which seriously complicates cross pollinating them.

The first ball-shaped flower was a modification of a Razzle Dazzle. It was just a Razzle Dazzle that went on a floret-petal generating binge, with no apparent mechanism to say "enough with the petals". I have been able to make crosses involving Razzle Dazzles as males, because some of them produce more or less conventional pollen florets in the middle of the bloom.

But, although that first "onion flowered" zinnia was just a variation of a Razzle Dazzle, it didn't have any convention pollen florets. So, to get pollen from it, I would have to go "fishing" inside its floret-petals.

As it happens, that second ball shaped zinnia was a recombinant of a scabious flowered zinnia, that had an abundance of scabious hermaphroditic central flower parts, and no guard petals. The two ball shaped zinnias looked nearly identical, but were actually very different in detailed structure. The scabious central parts of the second ball shaped zinnia contained both anthers and stigmas but were more open, so that you could sometimes access their stigmas to apply pollen from an external source, or you could "pick" the part to use it as a pollen source for cross pollination.

But, you are right, both the Razzle Dazzle ball and the Scabious ball presented daunting difficulties to cross pollination. The same has been the case for the Woolly zinnias, which have enclosed petals that house a stigma with an anther bundle surrounding its style. I did use petal surgery (somewhat tedious) to make F1 crosses between a couple of Woolly specimens and widely different zinnias such as California Giants. Those crosses were successful and have produced some distinctly non-Woolly F1 hybrids that promise to produce some interesting recombinations in their F2 generation.

What remains to be done is to use petal surgery to produce F1 crosses between pollenless Razzle Dazzle zinnias and large male parents, such as Burpeeanas and California Giants.

So, you are right. It is easy to cross pollinate "regular" zinnias, but it can be quite a challenge, requiring petal surgery, to cross pollinate some of the oddball zinnia flowerforms.

ZM

ZenMan, I read this entire thread and am astounded by your knowledge. I just this minute joined this forum. I had been googling about how to breed zinnias and landed here. I am considering buying commercially grown seed of the color and flower type that I like and cull hard for the next generation seed. I would like to do this for several generations, and just look for improvements and the occasional mutant. May try my hand at cross breeding later on down the road. I live in zone 9 so can squeeze out two outside-grown generations a year easily. Thanks for sharing your Zin Wisdom.

FeralNatureFarm said:I am considering buying commercially grown seed of the color and flower type that I like and cull hard for the next generation seed. I would like to do this for several generations, and just look for improvements and the occasional mutant. May try my hand at cross breeding later on down the road. I live in zone 9 so can squeeze out two outside-grown generations a year easily.

Hi FeralNatureFarm,
Welcome to All Things Plants and to this zinnia breeding discussion message thread. Your zinnia breeding plan is sound, and the ability to grow two generations outdoors is a potentially powerful advantage.

I do have a suggestion that could help jump-start your zinnia project. I have noticed that there is some correlation between zinnia petal-seed shape and the shape of the petal itself. So you can, if you wish, do culling on your initial supply of zinnia seeds. Pour some of your zinnia seeds out on a white surface, like a sheet of white paper, and pick out the "interesting" looking zinnia seeds to plant. If you are going for large bloom size, pick out the biggest seeds. You can keep the remaining seeds for later use.

If you are like me, you probably will over-buy your zinnia seeds, and have more zinnia seeds than you have room for in your garden. So picking out your favorite zinnia seeds is a good introductory step. Zinnias show a lot of variation, and that carries over into the zinnia seeds themselves. This picture compares some of my home hybrid zinnia seeds with a couple of commercial varieties.

Some zinnia seeds can have interesting variations in their shape, like these that had "ruffled" edges, and extra large shapes and size.

This is an enlarged detail of some of those zinnia seeds. Like the pictures on some cereal boxes, the picture is enlarged "to show texture".

To make it easier to judge the zinnia seed sizes, all the seeds are on graph paper that is graduated in tenths of an inch.

Since I have been commenting on those zinnia seed pictures, and you are a new member, I will make a few remarks about the photos here on All Things Plants. As you probably already know, you can click on any ATP photo to see a larger version of it. The inline pictures are essentially just large "thumbnails". When the large version of the picture appears, you can usually improve its display a little more by hitting your F11 key to remove your browser's heading material and dedicate the whole screen to the picture. The full-screen picture can have scroll bars that let you find the "X" button on the lower righthand corner of the picture to close it and return to the message thread. People upload various sizes of pictures. Smaller pictures may not need the scroll bars to make the X-button visible. Hit your F11 key to restore your browser's heading material.

I welcome your comments and will try to answer any questions you might have. Zinnia growing and breeding can be an engrossing hobby. It can be as simple as you want, or as involved as you want.

ZM

Thanks for the warm welcome, ZenMan. I'm fascinated by the seed tips that you have just given me and look forward to implementing them. I like the tip using the graph paper. I am late getting my zinnias planted this year, because of some family obligations, but will get them in the ground next week, they are arriving by mail. I am certainly going to sort them as advised. I haven't grown zinnias in years and when I did my online seed shopping, I was amazed at some of the new varieties. I went with Eden Brothers and ordered three packs of sends, one pack each of Scabiosa Flowered Mix, Burpeanna Giants Mixed and Swirls Mix. They should really produce a wild variety of flowers and I can make my choices on what plants I want seeds from based on what "speaks" to me. I am temporarily living in the city, and away from my farm, so have only a few sunny spots in the yard. I will keep a log and photos and am really looking forward to this journey.

FeralNatureFarm said:I went with Eden Brothers and ordered three packs of sends, one pack each of Scabiosa Flowered Mix, Burpeanna Giants Mixed and Swirls Mix. They should really produce a wild variety of flowers and I can make my choices on what plants I want seeds from based on what "speaks" to me. ...I will keep a log and photos and am really looking forward to this journey.

Hi Diane,
That is a good assortment of zinnias, with lots of potential interesting specimens, and opportunities for interesting crosses.

Last year I purchased some California Giants zinnia seeds from Eden Brothers. They seem to be a good seed company, and I picked them because their pictures of California Giants included some white ones. And that was accurate, I got a good assortment of colors, including white. I have been looking for interesting variations in the indoor California Giants, and this is one of them.

I am interested in the V-shaped bend to some of the petals. That may be the result of crossing a California Giant with one of my zinnias. I am now saving seeds from some of my indoor zinnias. I probably will take a chance on planting some zinnia seeds outdoors in-ground in a couple of weeks.

I look forward to hearing of your zinnia experiences, and seeing any photos that you wish to upload. Good luck on your zinnia project.

ZM

Wow.. thats so many beautifull unusual flower. Love them. Great job. It must be so breathtaking to see them flower for the first time.

XiaoLong said:Wow.. thats so many beautifull unusual flower. Love them. Great job. It must be so breathtaking to see them flower for the first time.

Hello Xiao Long,
You are correct. The most anticipation in growing zinnias is waiting to see what that first bloom will look like. That is even the case with ordinary commercial zinnias, since all zinnias are so variable, but it is especially true with your own home hybridized zinnias. On that first day all you can see is the petal color and petal form, since it takes a zinnia bloom many days to fully form. But, as you say, that first flower is the high point in growing zinnias.

I am curious. Do you grow zinnias where you live? I confess to knowing very little about Indonesia.

ZM

Hello everyone,
These are a flat of my hybrid zinnias that are on the deck in a shady spot "hardening off".

I have others. It should be warm enough this weekend to set them out in the garden. It is cool, cloudy, and windy here in east-central Kansas today, with a slight chance of a small shower. I'm concentrating on indoor garden work today. More later.

ZM

Hi, I am a busy mother of two. I am currently fostering the love of growing things in my 9 year old son, as well as renewing my love for gardening. My other child is only 20 months old and so, I am in need of very consice and basic information to get me started in breeding zinnias so I can, in turn, introduce my son to the art and hobby of cross breeding while learning myself. It is a way I can spend qaulity time with him outside, doing something he loves, something I love, etc etc. You get my point. I have spent several weeks scannning over your threads but I still don't quite get the actual process. I tend to get a bit dismayed with certain terminology. (Ithink you should write a book!!-"Breeding Zinnias for Dummies??" lol!!! I live in South Florida, zone 10. Any advice would be appreciatated

carebear2056 said:Hi, I am a busy mother of two. I am currently fostering the love of growing things in my 9 year old son, as well as renewing my love for gardening. My other child is only 20 months old and so, I am in need of very consice and basic information to get me started in breeding zinnias so I can, in turn, introduce my son to the art and hobby of cross breeding while learning myself. It is a way I can spend qaulity time with him outside, doing something he loves, something I love, etc etc. You get my point. I have spent several weeks scannning over your threads but I still don't quite get the actual process. I tend to get a bit dismayed with certain terminology. (Ithink you should write a book!!-"Breeding Zinnias for Dummies??" lol!!! I live in South Florida, zone 10. Any advice would be appreciatated :)

If you want to hybridize and show kids you might want to start with something easy, like lillies. For you zinnias would be great! My nephew is 7 and doesn't even know much about plants except they need water,light, dirt and grow from seeds and moms like flowers. 🙂 I would be happy to show him but he's not interested in gardening really, that's great your son likes it! I'm sure the OP can help you how to hybridize zinnias!

carebear2056 said:...I am in need of very concise and basic information to get me started in breeding zinnias so I can, in turn, introduce my son to the art and hobby of cross breeding while learning myself. It is a way I can spend quality time with him outside, doing something he loves, something I love, etc etc. You get my point,

Hi carebear,
I do get your point. Welcome to you and your young son to the zinnia breeding hobby. Zinnias are appropriate for children because they are easy to grow, they grow fast, and their seeds are big enough to be easy to handle. As an adult, I also appreciate the easy-to-handle nature of zinnia seeds. Petunia seeds are just too tiny for me. And I don't want to wait years to see the results of a cross. I am impatient, and zinnias bloom in about 6 weeks from seed, so that appeals to me.

carebear2056 said:I have spent several weeks scannning over your threads but I still don't quite get the actual process.

Zinnias are actually quite easy to breed, because their flower parts are also rather large, convenient to access, and easy to handle. To cross one zinnia with another, simply use tweezers or forceps to "pick" one of the pollen florets (the fuzzy yellow starfish shaped parts) from one zinnia and rub it on one or more of the stigmas (Y-shaped antenna-like parts at the base of each petal) of another zinnia. The pollen you transferred will fertilize the seed at the base of the petal that had the stigma. Or you can apply the pollen to the stigmas of the same bloom if you want to "self" that bloom.

carebear2056 said:I tend to get a bit dismayed with certain terminology. (I think you should write a book!!-"Breeding Zinnias for Dummies??"

Maybe I should write a book. This picture shows the basic terminology of pollen florets and stigmas.

carebear2056 said:I live in South Florida, zone 10. Any advice would be appreciated :)

You probably have a much longer growing season than I do here in Kansas, and that could work to your advantage. You might be able to grow two generations of zinnias per year more easily than I do here in Kansas. As soon as you make a zinnia cross, you start wondering what it will look like, and it is great if you don't have to wait until next year to see the results.

Let's continue this discussion, because there is so much to talk about. Having a 9-year old involved adds a new dimension to the discussion.

ZM

ZM,
Thank you so very much for your prompt response. I was looking forward to logging on all day. This is exactly the information I was looking for. I am fascinated by the whole practice of cross breeding plants but it wasn't until now that all the stars aligned and things started coming together to the point I thought I might actually be able to do it. Gardening is in my blood. I come from people who have either farmed or always had a million things growing because of the pure joy of it. My dad recently told me that my Mexican grandmother loved Zinnias. I have struggled with having an actual vegetable garden because the soil is predominantly sand and the bugs live all year down here, which means a lot of work to amend, the use of pesticides, soil solarization, etc. The way people garden down here is to put in already grown hardy perrenials into the ground and just maintain them. My point is, there isn't much growing things from seed. I suppose that's true to an extent everywhere but its different when you walk out your back door and you have "REAL DIRT" to work with , lol. I recently fell hard for zinnias. My mom and son bought a "buttonbox" mix from our local nursery and we planted it. The flowers started coming up and my interest grew. I started window shopping seed companies for fun, putting lots and lots of zinnias in my virtual cart. I then started looking up optimal care to produce the best plants possible and somewhere in there is when I found your threads. I breifly explained to my son that I was researching "cross breeding" and told him what I know about the process and his eyes widened and the wheels started turning. He and I started his garden as part of a Christmas gift to him. I came across "straw bale" gardening and decided to try it. It addressed the problem of poor soil and my fear of growing in soil I do not know the history of and seemed like a fairly inexpensive way to get started. As for the zinnias, since we aren't consuming them, we just grow them in the sand, amended with miracle grow garden soil. Im not sure if that's the best but I have limited resources (namely time to educate myself). Now, everything is growing really well. The first thing he does when he wakes up is to check to see what's blooming or growing. It is a true gift to see his love for the natural world unfold everyday.
There IS so much to talk about. Thank you for your enthusiam to teach us. I have a lot of questions but at the moment, I can't think of any. It's been a long day. I look forward to more learning and the fun of talking about something I enjoy with someone else from someone who knows a lot :)

carebear2056 said:ZM,
Thank you so very much for your prompt response. I was looking forward to logging on all day. This is exactly the information I was looking for. I am fascinated by the whole practice of cross breeding plants but it wasn't until now that all the stars aligned and things started coming together to the point I thought I might actually be able to do it. Gardening is in my blood. I come from people who have either farmed or always had a million things growing because of the pure joy of it. My dad recently told me that my Mexican grandmother loved Zinnias. I have struggled with having an actual vegetable garden because the soil is predominantly sand and the bugs live all year down here, which means a lot of work to amend, the use of pesticides, soil solarization, etc. The way people garden down here is to put in already grown hardy perrenials into the ground and just maintain them. My point is, there isn't much growing things from seed. I suppose that's true to an extent everywhere but its different when you walk out your back door and you have "REAL DIRT" to work with , lol. I recently fell hard for zinnias. My mom and son bought a "buttonbox" mix from our local nursery and we planted it. The flowers started coming up and my interest grew. I started window shopping seed companies for fun, putting lots and lots of zinnias in my virtual cart. I then started looking up optimal care to produce the best plants possible and somewhere in there is when I found your threads. I breifly explained to my son that I was researching "cross breeding" and told him what I know about the process and his eyes widened and the wheels started turning. He and I started his garden as part of a Christmas gift to him. I came across "straw bale" gardening and decided to try it. It addressed the problem of poor soil and my fear of growing in soil I do not know the history of and seemed like a fairly inexpensive way to get started. As for the zinnias, since we aren't consuming them, we just grow them in the sand, amended with miracle grow garden soil. Im not sure if that's the best but I have limited resources (namely time to educate myself). Now, everything is growing really well. The first thing he does when he wakes up is to check to see what's blooming or growing. It is a true gift to see his love for the natural world unfold everyday.
There IS so much to talk about. Thank you for your enthusiam to teach us. I have a lot of questions but at the moment, I can't think of any. It's been a long day. I look forward to more learning and the fun of talking about something I enjoy with someone else who knows a lot :)

carebear2056 said:The way people garden down here is to put in already grown hardy perennials into the ground and just maintain them. My point is, there isn't much growing things from seed.

Hello carebear,
I look forward to our conversations because I am very curious about what special problems zinnias will encounter in Florida. It is good that you grew the Button Box zinnias to the blooming stage, because that suggests there isn't some Florida insect that immediately devours all zinnias. Incidentally, I love to eat English peas right in the garden as I pick them off the vine. I am trying to grow some Sugar Snap peas this year for that reason. They are susceptible to Powdery Mildew, but I will spray them with GreenCure, which is a totally non-toxic control for PM. Since I don't eat my zinnias, I can control Powdery Mildew on them with a systemic fungicide.

carebear2056 said:My mom and son bought a "buttonbox" mix from our local nursery and we planted it. The flowers started coming up and my interest grew. I started window shopping seed companies for fun, putting lots and lots of zinnias in my virtual cart. I then started looking up optimal care to produce the best plants possible. ...As for the zinnias, since we aren't consuming them, we just grow them in the sand, amended with miracle grow garden soil. I'm not sure if that's the best but I have limited resources (namely time to educate myself). Now, everything is growing really well.

Zinnias grow well in sandy soil, because their roots need a lot of oxygen. I have a sand pile that I use to amend our silt-based Kansas soil. Zinnias respond well to foliar feeding, and I use a water soluble nutrient for that. Miracle-Gro Tomato food seems to be almost optimal for my zinnias, partly because of its increased content of soluble Magnesium (a component of chlorophyll). I also use other soluble nutrient products. The run-off from the foliar feeding feeds the roots as well.

carebear2056 said: I started window shopping seed companies for fun, putting lots and lots of zinnias in my virtual cart. I then started looking up optimal care to produce the best plants possible...

I don't know how much space you have for your zinnia project, but obviously it is finite and you will need only a finite amount of zinnia seed. If you are like me, you will tend to "over buy" zinnia seed. I still have a few unopened packets from years ago. As I suggested in a message above, you can spread your zinnia seeds out on a piece of white paper and pick out the "interesting" looking ones to plant. Using that technique, you can actually turn an excess of zinnia seeds to your advantage.

There are a very wide number of zinnia varieties that you can pick from, and your choices will depend on your personal preferences. But whatever varieties you decide on, I suggest you include some Whirligigs. Whirligigs have two or three colors on each petal, and they were derived from interspecific crosses between Zinnia elegans and Zinnia haageana. Zinnias with that mixed heritage are usually referred to as Zinnia hybrida. Since I have included Whirligigs in my genetic mix for many years, pretty much all of my home-hybridized zinnias are now Zinnia hybrida. Sometimes the hybridized Whirligig multicolor trait can become very subtle, and hardly noticeable.

And sometimes the two-color or three-color petals can appear in "full force".

I have had other interesting traits come from my Whirligigs, like "toothy" petal ends.

There are many other zinnia varieties that you could add to your mix, besides the Whirligigs. Just out of curiosity, do you have any preferences about plant height? Do you like short zinnias, or tall ones?

ZM

ZM,
Those are wonderful crosses. It inspires true awe in me to see what has been done and to think of the possibilities. Thank you for sharing your hobby with the world!

It's good to know zinnias like sand as well as foliar feeding. I will pick up some Tomato food and see what happens. I've learned so much already

I am curious to find out about growing zinnias in FL too. I hope it wont be too hard. I hope nematoads don't like them. My mom had a basil garden when I was growing up and she actually made money from it. It is a very developed area down here but my parents have a large backyard, comparitively. She was always fighting the nematoads though.

I am not sure what height I prefer yet. I do like cutting them so I can admire them within the comfort of the air conditioner when it gets too hot, so I guess I would say taller types for stem length. However, there are lots of different sized vases and I've been thrift store hunting for short ones to display my button boxes, ha. What height do you prefer? Do you also prefer a flower size?

As for cross breeding, when do you actually do it? It took me a little while to understand that the flower takes days to fully open. I was cutting them and bringing them inside before they were fully open. I am still not sure what that does to the development. I know some flowers open up anyway but not sure with zinnias yet.

When you make a cross, do you wait until they are fully open or when exactly do you do it? Also, do you keep the seeds from both flowers? I understand it is the one you apply the pollen to that will have the cross but I am just curious of your seed saving practices. If I want to put the pollen from one on another, can I cut the one I get the pollen from and bring it inside for a vase? If I have flowers in a vase, would their seeds be viable if I hang them to dry once they are spent? Do I have to wait for the flower to die on the plant to attain viable seeds?

Also, by "interesting" seeds, what exactly do you mean? (I need to learn the fancy trick of using your actual words for reference.) What do you look for in a seed?

I read that you like the more open petals. I do as well. Do you cross with burpeeana or cactus types? Are there zinnias you can't cross with? I have Eden Brother's "swirls". Is that the same as whirlgig?

I read that zinnias need sunlight to germinate. I've been having a little trouble with germination. I don't know if I am doing something wrong or if the seed I have just isn't the best. I looked at a lot of seeds online but I only ended up buying from Eden brothers and I also bought mostly from various stores like Target and Walmart. So far, I haven't had a ton of seedlings pop up. The button box were the very first but when I decided to have a garden just for zinnias, I had more sucsess than I am having lately. At first, they sprouted in 3 days in late March but then we had so much rain that it killed all of them. I think I also overwatered them. It is hard to know if I am giving them the right amount of water. It is starting to get very hot and the soil just looks so dry sometimes. Now, germination is taking significantly more time and I'm not sure why. Sometimes they come up almost 2 weeks from planting. Do you have any advice as far as that goes?

The University of Florida extension says they can be planted year round in this zone and that they last 4-6 months from planting. However, on the seed packets, it says to only direct sow March-May, on some March-August and on some Sept-Feb. It's just a little confusing.

I have a good amount of space for my Zinnia project. It's not space that restricts me. It is free time :(

Wow, I just asked you a lot of questions! I'm sorry to be so needy. I clearly have a lot to learn. Thank you again for all your help!!

Update: I went through and read more of your posts and got answers to a lot of these questions!!

ZM,
By the way, I meant to say you definitely need to write a book. It would be a great resource for the public. I looked in the very extensive library system down here and found nothing on this subject. If it were a bare bones resource, with information simplified in laymen's terms, maybe even marketed to people like me who want to take up this hobby for something healthy to do with their children (or just because its awesome), I think it would do well. You could make it beautiful too, with lots of zinnia eye candy of your favorite crosses in various collages throughout the book. (My marketing/entrepreneurial side is coming out, lol.) You could call it, "It Can Be Fun to Breed Your Own Zinnias". Seriously, I would buy it.