RickCorey said:

That was the theme of a book about engineering I have. If you build the same old kind of bridge that everyone builds, and it doesn't fall down, you learned nothing.

If you try something new and it hasn't fallen down yet, maybe you learned something new and maybe you just got lucky.

But if you try something new, and it fails, AND you figure out why it failed, you have discovered an entire new principle, or a new mode of failure, that engineering students will study for decades! Progress!

There are organizations (I heard the claim that NASA is one) that are good at identifying the root causes of disasters. However, they are bad at APPLYING the lesson. Sometimes they make the same mistake repeatedly: that's an example of NOT learning anything USEFUL.

We have a program at work where we are supposed to capture "Lessons Learned" for future programs' edification. As far as I know, no one has ever entered one. if they had named it "Lessons We SHOULD Have Learned", or "Lessons Ignored", I bet they would get an earful!
Rick
about my composter
the top of the pile looks very dry.....so i sprinkeled a little bit of water over it.
i was thinking.....maybe the whole thing is not working.
starting from the fact that it looks dry after me suffering from over wettness....
continuing to the thought that i tried to reverse a process that should have been done gradually...like i am doing now with my new pile.(that means every bucket of home organic material gets some dry chips imediatly.)
can you guess what is happening inside ....deep down were the soggy stuff should be?
do you think that soggy material is now in some kind of correct process;that means that there are some organisms there working on the pile since it is more airy and balanced?
or......i am just very impatient?
the sight of the dry barks on the top of the pile maybe distracting my attention?!
i have an urge to take a garden fork and try to turn over the material but then there is a feeling that maybe i need to give the pile sometime to recover from its trauma....

I found this thread interesting and thought I would add this anecdote. I ran into an acquaintance one time who was in the middle of slaughtering some steers. He is a full time cattleman, not just a back yard farmer. I was interested to ask him what they did with the offal and he told me they composted it right there. There was no smell at all and he told me it was excellent fertilizer for his fields. I asked him about the smell, and he told me they turned it often with a tractor and added other organics to the (giant) pile when it was convenient. They apparently didn't have a problem with smell or pests, which really surprised me. I guess if you really know what you're doing, you can break all the rules!

Lauri, I read the same thing in some academic article. They didn't even dismember steer carcasses, they put WHOLE, dead steers into a big compost heap and turned it as necessary.

If the heap was big enough, no smell escaped.

Nature is very good about recycling!

David,

>> the top of the pile looks very dry.....so i sprinkeled a little bit of water over it.

Good. But 'sprinkling a LITTLE water' isn't enough, if the center got hot and steamed a lot of moisture away.

>> it looks dry after me suffering from over wettness....

>> can you guess what is happening inside ....deep down were the soggy stuff should be?

Since it will benefit a lot from turning, don;t guess, dig! With a garden fork or shovel, dig into the center and SEE and FEEL if it is dry. It won't compost if too very dry, and even being "pretty dry" may slow it down.

Just don't add SO much water that it gets waterlogged and limits the ability of oxygen to diffuse right into the center. If you do add too much water, turn it every few days until it dries back out enough to "breath" on its own.

You can think of turning the pile as "artificial respiration". You are doing the breathing for it by bringing the soggy, anoxic center to the surface where oxygen can reach it, and turning uncomposted stiff twigs and straw into the center, where they will hold open air channels.


>> there are some organisms there working on the pile since it is more airy and balanced?

Yes, for sure.

>> or......i am just very impatient?

Probably, like most gardeners and composters!

>> i have an urge to take a garden fork and try to turn over the material

YES! Exactly.

>> but then there is a feeling that maybe i need to give the pile sometime to recover from its trauma....

Well, not really. Once air reaches the center, you may get some heat building up, which is good.

Turning 2-3 times per week would release all that heat, which is a little bad, but if it needs any air, or needs lots less water than it has, turning it weekly will help much more than losing the heat hurts.

>> the top of the pile looks very dry.....so i sprinkeled a little bit of water over it.
>> the sight of the dry barks on the top of the pile maybe distracting my attention?!
>> i have an urge to take a garden fork and try to turn over the material

The outermost layer always dries out. Turning a normal heap monthly. or twice a month, or every other month, brings that dry outer layer into the center where it can be digested. A normal heap wants SOME undisturbed time so the center can heat up, the heat-loving microbes can multiply, and do their thing. But if the center is hot and stays hot for 3-4 days, you've gotten most of the benefit you can.

I think that impatient composters wait until the center gets hot (some stick in a long-probed thermometer) and then give another 3-4 days, [u]or until the center starts to cool down on its own, after breaking down the easiest-to-digest parts quickly. Then they turn to expose that dry outer layer to the hot, moist, biologically active center.

You heap may go very quickly, since it has been "predigested" in an anaerobic, fermentation way. But you really do want it all to have a chance at both oxygen and humidity, so beneficial aerobic microbes can consume the undesirable microbes and their fermentation products.

Hence some turning is a good idea, and for sure you need to see or push your hand into the center to be sure it is both moist and airy.

When in doubt, turn at least every few months if you have the strength and energy.

When in haste, turn a big but normal heap every 2-3 weeks.

In your case, at least inspect the center every week to be sure it hasn't "slimed down" into an anaerobic mess again. If the inspection lets oxygen into the center, win-win.

If the inspection tells you that, for whatever reason, now its a dry, thirsty pile instead of a soggy anaerobic mess, you might have to water it heavily.

Is it now covered from the rain, or sloped so that any rainfall runs right off instead of sinking in?

Bad smell is usually a sign of anaerobic decomposition. Stirring and adding air (oxygen) to the pile should clear it in a matter of days. Adding browns also adds air and absorbs excess moisture (in case of paper or cardboard).

My new (serious) pile looks like this:


Before I had these bins (or the room to start one) I kept my kitchen scraps (and some browns) in dust bins in the basement during winter. I made sure to aerate it EVERY day, but the horrendous smell developped nonetheless; it made me vomit.

The greens mostly consist of grass clippings now that we got to mow the lawn twice a week --' and kitchen scraps. But I'm seriously about it this time and add as much browns as I can: paper, tons of torn cardboard, wood pellets and some leaves. And I'm telling ya, that pile is soaring hot! I couldn't keep my hand in it :p I also try stirring it with a fork atleast every other day and it doesn't smell at all.

Too hot to touch! That is REALLY cooking!

RickCorey said:David,

>> the top of the pile looks very dry.....so i sprinkeled a little bit of water over it.

Good. But 'sprinkling a LITTLE water' isn't enough, if the center got hot and steamed a lot of moisture away.

>> it looks dry after me suffering from over wettness....

>> can you guess what is happening inside ....deep down were the soggy stuff should be?

Since it will benefit a lot from turning, don;t guess, dig! With a garden fork or shovel, dig into the center and SEE and FEEL if it is dry. It won't compost if too very dry, and even being "pretty dry" may slow it down.

Just don't add SO much water that it gets waterlogged and limits the ability of oxygen to diffuse right into the center. If you do add too much water, turn it every few days until it dries back out enough to "breath" on its own.

You can think of turning the pile as "artificial respiration". You are doing the breathing for it by bringing the soggy, anoxic center to the surface where oxygen can reach it, and turning uncomposted stiff twigs and straw into the center, where they will hold open air channels.


>> there are some organisms there working on the pile since it is more airy and balanced?

Yes, for sure.

>> or......i am just very impatient?

Probably, like most gardeners and composters!

>> i have an urge to take a garden fork and try to turn over the material

YES! Exactly.

>> but then there is a feeling that maybe i need to give the pile sometime to recover from its trauma....

Well, not really. Once air reaches the center, you may get some heat building up, which is good.

Turning 2-3 times per week would release all that heat, which is a little bad, but if it needs any air, or needs lots less water than it has, turning it weekly will help much more than losing the heat hurts.

>> the top of the pile looks very dry.....so i sprinkeled a little bit of water over it.
>> the sight of the dry barks on the top of the pile maybe distracting my attention?!
>> i have an urge to take a garden fork and try to turn over the material

The outermost layer always dries out. Turning a normal heap monthly. or twice a month, or every other month, brings that dry outer layer into the center where it can be digested. A normal heap wants SOME undisturbed time so the center can heat up, the heat-loving microbes can multiply, and do their thing. But if the center is hot and stays hot for 3-4 days, you've gotten most of the benefit you can.

I think that impatient composters wait until the center gets hot (some stick in a long-probed thermometer) and then give another 3-4 days, [u]or until the center starts to cool down on its own, after breaking down the easiest-to-digest parts quickly. Then they turn to expose that dry outer layer to the hot, moist, biologically active center.

You heap may go very quickly, since it has been "predigested" in an anaerobic, fermentation way. But you really do want it all to have a chance at both oxygen and humidity, so beneficial aerobic microbes can consume the undesirable microbes and their fermentation products.

Hence some turning is a good idea, and for sure you need to see or push your hand into the center to be sure it is both moist and airy.

When in doubt, turn at least every few months if you have the strength and energy.

When in haste, turn a big but normal heap every 2-3 weeks.

In your case, at least inspect the center every week to be sure it hasn't "slimed down" into an anaerobic mess again. If the inspection lets oxygen into the center, win-win.

If the inspection tells you that, for whatever reason, now its a dry, thirsty pile instead of a soggy anaerobic mess, you might have to water it heavily.

Is it now covered from the rain, or sloped so that any rainfall runs right off instead of sinking in?

Rick
thank you for your detailed answer
i will see what is going on inside
david

Great, simply digging into it enough to look will give it what it needs: aeration and mixing.

Then, when you know the inner moisture level, you can pamper it further or just wait until it finishes composting.

BTW, you can always take some compost from the center and use it, as long as it doesn't have any of that "garbage smell" as opposed to "good soil smell". The smell will tell you when the fermentation products have all been digested.

Your next pile should be much easier. A little attention to the moisture level (and hence to the aeration) will save you the effort of "rescuing" a stinky heap.

RickCorey said:Great, simply digging into it enough to look will give it what it needs: aeration and mixing.

Then, when you know the inner moisture level, you can pamper it further or just wait until it finishes composting.

BTW, you can always take some compost from the center and use it, as long as it doesn't have any of that "garbage smell" as opposed to "good soil smell". The smell will tell you when the fermentation products have all been digested.

Your next pile should be much easier. A little attention to the moisture level (and hence to the aeration) will save you the effort of "rescuing" a stinky heap.

i checked the heap this morning (a good student)
and found the center very hot.....so i covered again and watered the dry top i was worried about...
so with a little bit of patience....
no body answered my question about rooting hormons for hydroponic plants...do you know anything?anybody?
david

Excellent. That's perfect.

By the way, you don't need to quote my answer each time. It's still visible to readers in the thread above the current post.

>> i am amazed how i get imediate answers just like sitting in class.who is incharge of this whole network ?i would like to thank and maybe one day be able to help with my proceeding knowledge?
i understand it is like wikipedia?that everybody contributes knowledge?
what about wrong information?

Yup. WE (including you) provide interesting questions and answers (or opinions or advice). You've already contributed with a good question, excellent follow-up, and describing what you saw result from trying some of the ideas.

That's how we ALL learn! I hope you continue describing how it goes, as the center cools off eventually and you mix the outer layers into the middle (or harvest the middle and let the other layers continue cooking.

When you come back to the thread and say "I tried ABC and it helped", we all learn that a situation that looked like XYZ to you, really DID benefit from the ABC advice.

Greene said:
>> Oh, if we contribute 'wrong' information, others will come along to give information that is more accurate and correct. It is best to read all the answers and pick the best answers; answers that were given by multiple people are more likely the correct answers.

If you had reported some other outcome, we would have learned that sometimes it can SOUND like a soggy, anaerobic pile, but ACTUALLY be some other problem. So you're back to being a teacher.

David said:
>> no body answered my question about rooting hormons for hydroponic plants...do you know anything?anybody?

I scrolled back through the thread but did not see the question. Can you repeat the question - or, much better, start a new thread with a title like "rooting hormones for hydroponic plants" and ask the question there? Dave and Trish appreciate it when each question of thread has a topic that someone can search for ... but usually we just drift from topic to topic.

If a new topic starts up in the 50th post of a thread, the only people who will see it are those still following the original thread. If a new thread is added, with a clear topic, it will be visible to anyone entering that forum, or searching for related topics.

Here's a twist: if you start a new thread asking about rooting hormones or hydroponics, consider asking it in the Propagation Forum. You might find a group of people there who are especially interested in that topic.

http://garden.org/forums/view/...

This forum is also an appropriate place to ask, because the people who keep checking here have already decided to try to answer questions.

Hey Rick,

David did post his question on hydroponic rooting hormone separately on Ask a Question... I don't do hydroponics, but am doing some looking for a answer for him.

The thread "rooting hormone for hydroponics" in Ask a Question forum

I'm clueless on hydroponics as well, David. It's always seemed sort of a high-maintenance way to garden.

Whoops, thanks.

BTW, I edited an old post in this thread, where I was scowling at "willful ignorance". I realized how slanted my point of view is, compared to many people:

{Edited to add:

There are many people with an "Engineering" approach to gardening and I can't fault that. They want to know HOW to make things grow, but are not particularly interested in underlying reasons or scientific theories. They'd rather BE gardening than reading ABOUT gardening.

How can anyone fault that?
}

I have discovered that there are two approaches to learning...the scientific/engineering approach...read, explain, grasp, experiment, learn... and the kinetic approach..tell me, show me and then let me do it... The learning comes from the hands-on, the knowledge from understanding the mistakes and gaining experience from them.

Perhaps that is why "experience is the best teacher..."

I have heard that different people learn best different ways: "top down" or "bottom up".

"Top down" meant that they needed some conceptual framework FIRST, to let them absorb facts from books or from hands-on experience.

"Bottom up" meant that they needed some hands-on or specific examples FIRST, so that the high-order theories made any sense or even seemed useful.

Calling it "science" vs. "hands-on experience" makes it more clear and expands the idea.

Moonhowl said:Hey Rick,

David did post his question on hydroponic rooting hormone separately on Ask a Question... I don't do hydroponics, but am doing some looking for a answer for him.

The thread "rooting hormone for hydroponics" in Ask a Question forum

right

dyzzypyxxy said:I'm clueless on hydroponics as well, David. It's always seemed sort of a high-maintenance way to garden.

i like the part that belongs to the accurate way of how it should be do ne not only the fact that you dont have to water twice a week.

RickCorey said:Whoops, thanks.

BTW, I edited an old post in this thread, where I was scowling at "willful ignorance". I realized how slanted my point of view is, compared to many people:

{Edited to add:

There are many people with an "Engineering" approach to gardening and I can't fault that. They want to know HOW to make things grow, but are not particularly interested in underlying reasons or scientific theories. They'd rather BE gardening than reading ABOUT gardening.
i have both attitudes....depends what i am doing.....but i like to play with the two to see what happens so i can approach my students richer
How can anyone fault that?
}

RickCorey said:I have heard that different people learn best different ways: "top down" or "bottom up".

"Top down" meant that they needed some conceptual framework FIRST, to let them absorb facts from books or from hands-on experience.

"Bottom up" meant that they needed some hands-on or specific examples FIRST, so that the high-order theories made any sense or even seemed useful.

Calling it "science" vs. "hands-on experience" makes it more clear and expands the idea.

in 1985 i finished my gardening coarse and went to a nursery with a list of plants i wanted to buy.
i looked at a plant and asked an old lady selling there which plant is it?
she said....take the plant and plant it!
it was quite a shock to see this attitude.
how does the story continue.
ask the plant