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Avatar for Shadegardener
Feb 1, 2016 5:36 PM CST
Name: Cindy
Hobart, IN zone 5
aka CindyMzone5
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
Gosh - I wonder if there's any way to anticipate how much would get used up in a season short of doing a yearly soil test. In my little veggie space, there are roses and flowering shrubs and perennials and annuals which I shoulder aside to make room for veggies. Yep, it's a tight squeeze for everybody.
Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realize that we can't eat money. Cree proverb
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Feb 2, 2016 5:20 AM CST
Name: Sally
Nichols, iowa (Zone 5a)
Charter ATP Member Birds Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Vegetable Grower Peonies Lilies
Irises Region: Iowa Dog Lover Daylilies Cat Lover Butterflies
I started reading and got behind.

I had read about bonemeal long ago and this is what I found.

http://www.gardenmyths.com/bon...

http://homeguides.sfgate.com/b......

We added a little potash a couple years ago, but nothing since and I don't seem to make compost fast enough, lol!
A small town has no secrets except itself
Avatar for Shadegardener
Feb 2, 2016 10:03 AM CST
Name: Cindy
Hobart, IN zone 5
aka CindyMzone5
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
billy - Thanks for posting those links. I've been hesitant to add P the last couple of years because of run-off, algae bloom, etc concerns and I'm near a wetlands and creek. My soil test indicated that I'm above target on P. Other than my worm bin, I'm trying to do some composting in place because I'm getting lazy and never seem to have enough time to manage a big compost bin.
Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realize that we can't eat money. Cree proverb
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Feb 3, 2016 6:17 AM CST
Name: Sally
Nichols, iowa (Zone 5a)
Charter ATP Member Birds Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Vegetable Grower Peonies Lilies
Irises Region: Iowa Dog Lover Daylilies Cat Lover Butterflies
Cindy,
I also read a person shouldn't take bone meal supplements either.

''Dietary supplements are not held to the rigid standards of regular pharmaceuticals. This means their contents and effectiveness may or may not match the claims of the manufacturers. Before you commit to a course of bone meal, it's advisable to carefully research the reputation of different brands to find the highest quality option.''

I used to turn the garden by hand each fall. Weeds and whatever left to rot over winter. Then the no till came along. I still turned it.
Then, I found out it ruins the structure of the dirt, yes, it will always be dirt and not soil to me, lol! It also ruins worm tunnels. Urrrchhhh! I only disturb with rows and planting holes now and plant with a compost mix.
A small town has no secrets except itself
Avatar for Shadegardener
Feb 3, 2016 9:15 AM CST
Name: Cindy
Hobart, IN zone 5
aka CindyMzone5
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
Yuck! No bone meal supplements for me. I don't take any supplemental calcium due to recent discoveries of how it tends to get deposited in not-so-great places.
I have been loosening up soil in places where my fine top soil gets compacted. This spring, though, I'll have to disturb the top 6 inches with amendments. Then I'll add back the chop-and-drop debris on top along with some shredded leaves. Do worms re-use the same tunnels or are they always making new ones?
Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realize that we can't eat money. Cree proverb
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Feb 3, 2016 1:00 PM CST
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
Frugal Gardener Garden Procrastinator I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest
Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database.
I like the idea of a "broadfork" with long, widely spaced tines. You push it down into the soil around 8 inches then just LEAN the fork enoguh to loosen the soiland create air spaces where the tines are. It brings hardly any new weed seeds to the surface, loosens and aearates, and disturbs the soil as litle as possible.

My alternative is slumped, compacted clay, so I still turn the soil every few years.

But adding lots of compost 1-2 times per year eventually reduces the need for turning, even in heavy clay.
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Feb 3, 2016 1:04 PM CST
Name: Sally
Nichols, iowa (Zone 5a)
Charter ATP Member Birds Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Vegetable Grower Peonies Lilies
Irises Region: Iowa Dog Lover Daylilies Cat Lover Butterflies
Cindy,
Good question. I think they would use the same tunnel to come up in the spring and pull leaves into it to eat.

Here is good reading.

http://www.mnn.com/your-home/o...
A small town has no secrets except itself
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Feb 3, 2016 1:06 PM CST
Name: Sally
Nichols, iowa (Zone 5a)
Charter ATP Member Birds Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Vegetable Grower Peonies Lilies
Irises Region: Iowa Dog Lover Daylilies Cat Lover Butterflies
Rick,
Good advice for compacted soils. OK I said soil, lol! I'm lucky to have fairly loose dirt. We find if we've laid down things to walk on the dirt gets like concrete!
A small town has no secrets except itself
Avatar for Shadegardener
Feb 3, 2016 2:51 PM CST
Name: Cindy
Hobart, IN zone 5
aka CindyMzone5
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
Rick - kind of what I do with my hori knife but I have a brand new border fork to try out this spring so I'm not bent over all the time.
billy - thanks for posting that link. And yes - we are witness to the fact that you said "soil".
I really try hard not to walk in my garden beds but if I do, I feel guilty and try to fluff up the soil everywhere I walked.
Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realize that we can't eat money. Cree proverb
Image
Feb 3, 2016 4:05 PM CST
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
Frugal Gardener Garden Procrastinator I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest
Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database.
"Border fork" ... cool!

>> I really try hard not to walk in my garden beds but if I do, I feel guilty and try to fluff up the soil everywhere I walked.

I'm glad you said "fluff up". That's an important part of what I do each time I amend or turn my clay soil (or "clay clay" in the less-improved beds). I think of it like a cook "whipping some air into" an omelet.

After fluffing it up, I firm it down carefully so as to preserve as much air space after the next rain. I knew that I had "gotten it right" after putting a more-than-usual-amount of crushed stone into one clay+compost bed. When I firmed it back down, I could hear the grit "crunch" when the soil started resisting. That bed held its air spaces better than most.

I should add that these beds are chronically given too little compost and mulch. I need to reverse my cheapness when it comes to compost and mulch, or spend enough time to get a tree service to leave me their wood chips. And find a neighborhood with deciduous trees, that leaves bags of leaves by the road.
Avatar for Shadegardener
Feb 3, 2016 4:53 PM CST
Name: Cindy
Hobart, IN zone 5
aka CindyMzone5
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
I haven't resorted to gravel yet but I did add some perlite to an area to grow carrots last season. It'll be nice to see what it looks like this spring.
If mulch is hard to come by and you're not bothered by not having the wood-mulched look, you could try the chop and drop method. I'm really having to focus on that when I'm pruning during the growing season. I think Hazelnut posted some neat links in another thread.
Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realize that we can't eat money. Cree proverb
Image
Feb 3, 2016 4:58 PM CST
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
Frugal Gardener Garden Procrastinator I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest
Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database.
Doesn't chopping and dropping STICKS make weeding or cultivating more difficult? I don;t know, just guessing.

I have noticed that 1/4" irrigation tubing IN the bed makes hoeing a pain.
Avatar for Shadegardener
Feb 3, 2016 5:22 PM CST
Name: Cindy
Hobart, IN zone 5
aka CindyMzone5
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
I don't get tons of weeds in my beds other than chickweed and a stray weed or two. My weeding is usually done with a hori knife. I do have drip hoses - not the thin irrigation lines - and I cover those up with mulch anyway to contain the moisture near the soil.
Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realize that we can't eat money. Cree proverb
Image
Feb 3, 2016 5:42 PM CST
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
Frugal Gardener Garden Procrastinator I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest
Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database.
I DO still get tons of weeds. "Too busy to weed" ... a month later you can't see anything BUT weeds.
Avatar for Shadegardener
Feb 3, 2016 6:25 PM CST
Name: Cindy
Hobart, IN zone 5
aka CindyMzone5
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
I'm guessing because I don't have any open fields near me that I don't get many weeds. Maybe that plus my shady yard? Bizarre, I know - I always think I should have more when I hear of people weeding. My most obnoxious weed is poison ivy growing from seeds dropped by birds.
Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realize that we can't eat money. Cree proverb
Image
Feb 4, 2016 3:14 PM CST
Name: Sally
Nichols, iowa (Zone 5a)
Charter ATP Member Birds Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Vegetable Grower Peonies Lilies
Irises Region: Iowa Dog Lover Daylilies Cat Lover Butterflies
Cindy,
Me too on feeling guilty. That's why we bought the rubber mats and try to stay on them.

Rick,
I've never heard of adding gravel, but I can see how it would help with air and drainage.

Cindy,
We have new weeds every year. My former neighbor used to do grain bins and he brought a lot of weed seeds back with him. A lot just blew in on the wind.
Your poison ivy is bad. I'll take a thousand weeds over that!

I'm trying to decide on a mulch. I don't want bark chips and they don't sell pine needles around here. I want something that will break down. Straw just blows all over and makes a mess.
A small town has no secrets except itself
Avatar for Shadegardener
Feb 4, 2016 4:02 PM CST
Name: Cindy
Hobart, IN zone 5
aka CindyMzone5
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
Do you have enough fall leaves in a pile somewhere? Those are good when shredded. I don't think I've ever seen pine needles sold around here. When I hear of them being used for mulch, I always wonder what I'm missing. Do you have any tree trimmings that could be shredded? I'm sorry but I'm spoiled when it comes to mulch.
Due to the poison ivy, I always garden in long pants, shoes and socks and gloves on the hands. Would love to at least go barefoot at times.
Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realize that we can't eat money. Cree proverb
Avatar for Shadegardener
Feb 4, 2016 4:03 PM CST
Name: Cindy
Hobart, IN zone 5
aka CindyMzone5
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
I was going to suggest chopped corn stalks but they might have been sprayed with Roundup which would not be a good thing in the garden.
Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realize that we can't eat money. Cree proverb
Avatar for hazelnut
Feb 4, 2016 4:44 PM CST
Thread OP

Charter ATP Member
Rick. Do you mean the Eliot Coleman style Broad Fork: http://www.johnnyseeds.com/p-5... ?

You just poke it in and aerate but not turn the soil over?
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Feb 4, 2016 7:35 PM CST
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
Frugal Gardener Garden Procrastinator I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest
Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database.
Yup, exactly. I sometimes imitate that with a regular garden fork.

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