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Avatar for tinpanalley
Sep 15, 2023 4:54 PM CST
Thread OP
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
We've got a Thuja Smaragd and a Gardenia that both have different issues we can't figure out.

The Thuja - it seems to be browning in one part near the center. It's been outside all summer, it's never had pests, it seemed to be doing fine. Then over the course of a few days, we added a bit of the community compost from our building and at the same time our weather here in Montreal went from cool (18C) to intense heat with humidity (31C) to cool again.

The Gardenia - Has been lovely all summer, and even had a nice blossom in mid July. But in the past 2 weeks we started noticing the yellowing seen in the photos. We also added the compost here

Care - Both plants are watered when necessary with a regular fertiliser. In the Gardenia we added epsom salts because we read in several places that it was helpful for Gardenias to provide minerals and to try to avoid yellowing.

Questions:
1. Could the temperature shift back and forth have affected both plants?
2. Could the Thuja be underwatered?
3. Is the Thuja showing obvious signs of nutrient deficiency?

Thanks for any help!
The Thuja...
Thumb of 2023-09-15/tinpanalley/742e37

Thuja trimmings:
Thumb of 2023-09-15/tinpanalley/6e6c44

The Gardenia yellowing:
Thumb of 2023-09-15/tinpanalley/29df98
Image
Sep 17, 2023 2:17 PM CST
Name: Al F.
5b-6a mid-MI
Knowledge counters trepidation.
Japanese Maples Deer Tropicals Seed Starter Overwinters Tender Plants Indoors Region: Michigan
Houseplants Foliage Fan Dog Lover Container Gardener Birds Wild Plant Hunter
"Both plants are watered when necessary with a regular fertiliser." Please explain how you determine when it's time to water, and what you mean by the statement. Are you saying you fertilize every time you water?
1) "Could the temperature shift back and forth have affected both plants?" Doubtful. The only think I can think of is if the pots were directly exposed to sunlight and root temperatures got hot enough to kill some roots. Did your pot/plant blow over and then become exposed to direct sun. Blow-overs are much more susceptible to damage to roots via over-heating.
2) "Could the Thuja be underwatered? It could be. How do you determine when it's time to water? Do your pots have drain holes? If you're watering while you can still see or readily detect moisture in the medium, you're almost certainly not over-watering. Unfortunately, over-watering produces the same symptoms as under-watering; this, because excess water in the medium limits root function or damages root health, making it difficult for the plant to keep its most distal parts fully hydrated. If you ARE watering while you can still readily detect moisture in the medium, odds are much higher that you're over-watering. Does your home have a water softening system that uses salt as the exchange medium?
3) "Is the Thuja showing obvious signs of nutrient deficiency?" Nothing definitive. Tell us about how you approach nutritional supplementation/ fertilizing. What product(s) do you use? Please include the NPK %s. If the plant is being kept indoors, it's a good bet that's part of the problem.
"..... the Gardenia we added Epsom salts because we read in several places that it was helpful for Gardenias to provide minerals and to try to avoid yellowing." It's generally poor form to attempt fixes aimed at supplementing only one or two nutrients. There is an IDEAL ratio of nutrients that should be provides. This is done best by making sure you're watering correctly, so you're flushing the soil as you water, and you fertilize regularly with a fertilizer product that provides nutrients in a ratio as close as possible to the ratio at which the plant actually uses the nutrients. By increasing the level of magnesium (Mg) w/o knowing if a Mg deficiency actually exists, you run 2 risks. 1) Adding Mg when there is no deficiency unnecessarily raises the level of TDS (total dissolved solids/ salts), which makes it more difficult for the plant to task up water and nutrients. 2) A toxicity has the same ability to be limiting as a deficiency, and an excess of Mg in the medium limits uptake of potassium and calcium while increasing uptake of phosphorous.

It's far better to flush the soil each time you water by making sure the entire root/soil mass is fully wetted and at least 20% of the water applied exits the pot's drain hole, then fertilize about every 3rd or 4th time you water during active growth periods. I have many acid loving plants in pots and I use Foliage-Pro 9-3-6 as my 'go to' fertilizer for everything I grow in pots.
Thumb of 2023-09-17/tapla/8e1eeb
It has all nutrients essential to normal growth in a single package, and has a list of additional attributes very few fertilizers can deliver.

Questions?

Al
* Employ your time in improving yourself by other men's writings, so that you shall gain easily what others have labored hard for. ~ Socrates
* Change might not always bring growth, but there is no growth without change.
* Mother Nature always sides with the hidden flaw.
Avatar for tinpanalley
Sep 24, 2023 6:30 PM CST
Thread OP
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
"Please explain how you determine when it's time to water, and what you mean by the statement. Are you saying you fertilize every time you water?"
We water when the soil is dry or if a plant is meant to be watered in specific ways then we follow those general instructions. We have a probe to know what the state of our soil is. What I meant by the fertiliser comment is that when we use fertiliser, we use a regular fertiliser product and use it as per instructions. Not that we use it each time. The fertiliser is 24-8-16

"Did your pot/plant blow over and then become exposed to direct sun."
No there was nothing like that that happened at all. These are plants that are in pots on a 4ft x 8ft balcony.

Thuja - "How do you determine when it's time to water? " We water once a week because we had read on several sites that that was good for thujas and out of fear of overwatering because they are in shade. The soil was always dry when we went to water.
Do your pots have drain holes? Yes, and we use a one inch layer of clay pellets to avoid clogging the drainage hole.
Does your home have a water softening system that uses salt as the exchange medium? No.
Tell us about how you approach nutritional supplementation/ fertilizing. What product(s) do you use? Please include the NPK %s. - Miracle Grow's "Plant Food" 24-8-16. We follow the instructions.
" flush the soil " - Can you tell us a fool proof way to do this? Is it pouring water with a watering can until all the soil is drenched and then lettting it run dry?

Current state of concern...
Gardenia leaves have stopped turning yellow but there are some brown spots in the buds and leaves. Some leaves dropping.
Thuja - still dry in patches with browning.
Worth noting: we feel that things started to turn bad when we topped the pots with a layer of the compost that is made by the gardener of our building who uses it on the grounds for several cushes flowers, plants etc and that we have free access to. But this could just be a coincidence of timing, we have no verifiable proof of this.

Thank you so much for your help!
Image
Sep 24, 2023 7:35 PM CST
Name: Al F.
5b-6a mid-MI
Knowledge counters trepidation.
Japanese Maples Deer Tropicals Seed Starter Overwinters Tender Plants Indoors Region: Michigan
Houseplants Foliage Fan Dog Lover Container Gardener Birds Wild Plant Hunter
We water when the soil is dry or if a plant is meant to be watered in specific ways then we follow those general instructions. If a plant is in a container deeper than about 5", one of the most reliable methods of checking a planting's need for water is using a 'tell' (more reliable than a 'moisture meter'. You can use a bamboo skewer in a pinch, but a wooden dowel rod of about 5/16" (75-85mm) works better. They usually come 48" (120cm) long and can usually be cut in half or in several pieces, depending on how deep your pots are. Sharpen both ends of each tell in a pencil sharpener and slightly blunt the tip so it's about the diameter of the head on a straight pin. Push the wooden tell deep into the soil - all the way to the bottom of the pot. Don't worry, it won't harm the root system. If the plant is quite root-bound, you might need to try several places until you find one where you can push it all the way to the pot's bottom. Leave it a few seconds, then withdraw it and inspect the tip for moisture. For most plantings, withhold water until the tell's tip comes out nearly dry. If you see signs of wilting, adjust the interval between waterings so drought stress isn't a recurring issue.

We have a probe to know what the state of our soil is. Perhaps you're already using a "tell"?

What I meant by the fertiliser comment is that when we use fertiliser, we use a regular fertiliser product and use it as per instructions. Not that we use it each time. The fertiliser is 24-8-16. 24-8-16 is a 3:1:2 ratio fertilizer. If you had to choose 1 fertilizer for all your plants, a 3:1:2 ratio like 24-8-16, 12-4-8, or 9-3-6 (what I use) would be at the top of a list of best choices. You should know that your fertilizer probably doesn't contain Ca or Mg, and is likely missing more than 1 micronutrient. The FP 9-3-6 I mentioned above is a better product (contains the nutrients lacking in the MG products), but the product you're using is not so far off the mark that you should expect problems resultant of its use.

We water once a week because we had read on several sites that that was good for thujas and out of fear of overwatering because they are in shade. The soil was always dry when we went to water. While odds favor over-watering as the issue, your description of how you approach watering leads me to think you're under-watering. Watering intervals are not constant. IOW, they vary week to week, so you should be watering on an 'as needed' basis. The "tell" I described is a very effective tool that will help you keep watering intervals appropriate, if you make using it a part of your care regimen. BTW - Thuja prefers a full sun position.

[We use] Miracle Grow's "Plant Food" 24-8-16. We follow the instructions. OK. the frequency with which you fertilize is best tied to the number of times you've watered as opposed to the calendar. I have many plants in the Thuja genus, all of which I water at production levels when temperatures allow. I fertilize weekly, which ends up being about every 3rd or 4th watering, depending on what the weather is like.

To keep track of what plant needs fertilizing, drop a marble/ bottle cap/ button/ other object in the pot when you water. When you're about to drop in the 4th object, collect the 3 objects already in the pot, fertilize, then repeat the cycle.

Flush the soil ..... can you tell us a fool proof way to do this? Is it pouring water with a watering can until all the soil is drenched and then letting it run dry? There are 2 ways to deal with flushing the soil, depending on the grower's watering habits. 1) If the grower has been watering in small amounts so very little or no water exits the drain hole(s), slowly pour a volume of room temperature water equal to about 10x the volume of the pot the plant is in through the soil. This will flush out most of the dissolved solids/ salts from the soil and reset fertility levels to '0'. You can fertilize immediately after flushing the medium or wait a day or two. You can flush the soil any time, but don't start fertilizing until you see new growth or two weeks has passed since you flushed. You won't likely see new growth now because your plant started slowing primary growth (branch extension + more leaves and branches) about 3 months ago and is now storing energy reserves in new secondary growth cells which cause thickening of branches/ stems/ roots. If you use only the appearance of new growth as the bellwether that determines when you'll water, it would be a problem, nutritionally speaking. 2) If you HAVE been flushing the soil regularly, so at least 20% of the water used to soak the entire soil column exits the drain hole, you can simply continue that practice.

Gardenia leaves have stopped turning yellow but there are some brown spots in the buds and leaves. Some leaves dropping.
Thuja - still dry in patches with browning.
Sometimes it's difficult to pinpoint what the underlying cause of problems might be. In most cases, the stress of an unhealthy root system will be made manifest in a myriad of symptoms which can be caused by a variety of factors. When that occurs, it's often helpful to examine your care regimen or compare it to a regimen that is known to be very effective. I'll link you to a thread here that discusses practices that will help you be a more successful container gardener. Let me know if anything you're doing seems like a sharp contrast to current care practices.

The thread "An Overview of Good Growing Practices" in Houseplants forum

Worth noting: we feel that things started to turn bad when we topped the pots with a layer of the compost that is made by the gardener of our building ..... Hard to know if that's a problem. Do they use chemicals on the premises' lawn and were they included in the 'compost'?

Al
* Employ your time in improving yourself by other men's writings, so that you shall gain easily what others have labored hard for. ~ Socrates
* Change might not always bring growth, but there is no growth without change.
* Mother Nature always sides with the hidden flaw.
Last edited by tapla Sep 24, 2023 7:43 PM Icon for preview
Avatar for tinpanalley
Sep 24, 2023 10:36 PM CST
Thread OP
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Unrelated but how are you adding things like bold and links to your posts?
Image
Sep 25, 2023 11:32 AM CST
Name: Al F.
5b-6a mid-MI
Knowledge counters trepidation.
Japanese Maples Deer Tropicals Seed Starter Overwinters Tender Plants Indoors Region: Michigan
Houseplants Foliage Fan Dog Lover Container Gardener Birds Wild Plant Hunter
For the link, I simply copy/paste the link into the textbox. NGA does the rest; or, see instructions for using BB code here: https://garden.org/special/pag...

Note: The forum's settings are such that only some of the BB codes work on this site.

Al
* Employ your time in improving yourself by other men's writings, so that you shall gain easily what others have labored hard for. ~ Socrates
* Change might not always bring growth, but there is no growth without change.
* Mother Nature always sides with the hidden flaw.
Last edited by tapla Sep 25, 2023 11:37 AM Icon for preview
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