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Avatar for USCARTER
Jan 24, 2024 9:35 AM CST
Thread OP
Kuwait,
Hello all. Newbie to roses here. I am so confused about how I should be fertilizing my potted roses.

I have a dilemma...I keep getting so many different opinions on what fertilizer I should be using. I did a little googling, and some say to use a balanced fertilizer, some say fish fertilizer and a rose feed, some say only compost. I am so confused!

On Youtube, a lot of the rose nurseries and breeders said to use fish fertilizer and a rose feed and then some said to use a granular fertilizer. What am I supposed to do? I have all three: liquid fish fertilizer, Vitax organic liquid rose feed, and a balanced chemical fertilizer (15-15-15). But at this point I don't want to experiment on my roses and just need someone to help me here.

So, my question is: for potted plants in a warm climate with no dormancy periods for roses (zone 10b/11), what type of fertilizer should I be using for the overall health of my plants? I am really scared of burning them and do not want to experiment with all these things. We also have super hot summers and really dusty conditions, so my plants are *very* spider-mite prone. So, I really need to prioritize the health of my roses above simply flowering...an unhealthy plant probably won't flower very well.

*Edit: just realized my title doesn't fit the question...I started off in that direction and then changed my question and forgot to change the title!
Last edited by USCARTER Jan 24, 2024 10:25 AM Icon for preview
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Jan 24, 2024 9:23 PM CST
PNW (Zone 8b)
Since potting soil is inorganic substance, the way I fertilize my potted roses is to apply Osmocote (or any slow-release fertilizer) after spring pruning, add water-soluble fertilizer after two sets of leaves have grown, and then add water-soluble fertilizer every time after massive deadheading/late summer pruning. It's better to water the roses well before fertilizing. It doesn't matter what kind of fertilizer you use, just be aware that the younger the plant, the lighter the fertilizer you apply. Happy gardening!
Avatar for USCARTER
Jan 25, 2024 1:37 AM CST
Thread OP
Kuwait,
Thanks Aerith! I am assuming Osmocote is a granular fertilizer? Some nurseries tell me that granular will make the soil toxic after a while where others recommend it. My roses are not established yet (only about 5 months old and the oldest is in its second season)...will that make a difference?
Avatar for roseseek
Jan 25, 2024 12:10 PM CST
(Zone 9b)
You have basically two sorts of fertilizers: organic and inorganic. Both have their zealots. The main disadvantages of organics are nearly every source of organic fertilizer is animal (and people) food. If you have wild life (coyotes, raccoons, squirrels, rats, etc.) and use blood meal, bone meal, even alfalfa, they WILL find it attractive and will often dig up the area looking for the "food". Count household dogs in that group, also. I can't use organics because the three dogs go berserk looking for the "food". Organics also require appropriate soil temperatures and moisture levels for the bacteria and fungi to "digest" it into the salt forms, which are the forms plants are able to absorb through their feeder roots and literal green parts, so if you live where it's too cool, too wet, too dry, they may not provide you with the speed of benefit you desire. If you live where it's too hot, they can be digested quickly and then produce the 'feast and famine' effect of too much food followed by too little. But, they do help build soil and feed soil bacteria and fungi, producing a healthier soil. Inorganics are usually less costly; they store longer as long as they remain dry and they act much more quickly than organics because they are already in the form the plants require to be absorbed. If you have a chlorotic, nitrogen/iron deficient plant showing the characteristic yellowing leaves and want to "green it up" quickly, inorganic fertilizers applied by the label instructions, will provide that greening much more rapidly than organic. And, no animal will be attracted by the inorganic fertilizer. You have pelletized as well as water soluble inorganics. Use both with caution and only by the label instructions as being salts, if applied incorrectly, you can literally burn and kill plants with them.

No matter what type you use, always water the plant well a minimum of several hours (preferably the day before so it's turgid, full of water) before fertilizing. NEVER allow any fertilizer type to rest against the shank or canes of the plant as they all can damage and even kill the plant as they dissolve. It is safest to apply fertilizers in the "drip zone", where rain will run off the perimeter of the plant and fall to the soil in the greatest concentration. That's where the feeder roots are at their densest as that is where Nature provides the most water. Pellet types are best applied there so as they dissolve with the higher moisture levels, they wash through the feeder roots to be absorbed better. That is also where organics will find the best soil temps and moisture levels to provide the most efficient "digestion" by the soil flora and fauna. If you're using a water soluble type, you can literally "rain" on the plant as the salts can be absorbed by the foliage and canes as well as by the roots.

So, if you want the fastest results for your young plants, provide a good potting soil and either a time released type (Osmocote) so small amounts of nutrients are leached from the pellets with each watering over an extended time, or, my favorite for young plants and seedlings, a water soluble type applied "weakly, weekly". The traditional instructions for most water soluble types has long been a tablespoon per gallon applied every two weeks. Nitrogen flushes through the soil with irrigation water, so much of it is lost when you water. A more consistent application of nitrogen will keep plants growing at a steadier rate. I'll use half a tablespoon per gallon, applied weekly, "weakly, weekly" to them so they mature and develop faster. As long as they are properly watered BEFORE any "salts" are applied, and the "salts" are applied in the appropriate concentrations, it's impossible to burn the plants with too strong a dose. It requires more time and effort on your part than an application of Osmocote every two or three months, but you're likely hovering over the new roses anyway so tending them like this may easily fit in with your time and energies. Once you have more of them or they are larger and not "babies", you can easily switch to whatever types fit your budget, time and energy.

Fish emulsion is a good product, but it is not balanced. Whatever you use, read the guaranteed analysis of the product. The main numbers to pay attention to are the N-P-K (nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium) levels as those are the main indicators of what type the product is. Fish emulsion is often rated as 5-2-2. Some products vary a little. This says that product has a guaranteed level of 5% Nitrogen; 2% phosphorus and 2% potassium. Very basically, nitrogen stimulates growth; phosphorus stimulates flowering and potassium stimulates formation of fruit. Of course there are many other functions each stimulates but viewing them this way helps determine which type you want for what function. The three major types you will encounter are "lawn", "tomato" and "acid". Lawn and acid share a common trait, both are extremely high in nitrogen as that "acidifies" the soil which releases more of the nutrients locked up by alkaline compounds. Grasses mainly need nitrogen to grow and turn green. Acid loving plants such as azaleas, camellias and gardenias evolved in areas with acidic soils and waters so if grown where conditions are more alkaline, they require acid types to flourish. Roses basically love tomato type fertilizers, those with higher phosphorus levels than the other two nutrients to stimulate them to flower more than grow or set fruit. "All Purpose" types generally have fairly equal levels of N-P-K, such as 12-12-12. Those can be used for roses and other non acid loving plants but may provide more salts and nutrients than needed and can more easily burn due to the higher nitrogen levels.

Being told time release types will turn the soil "toxic" is a bit disingenuous. ANY product applied improperly can damage, even kill plants and "poison" the soil. As long as whatever is used is applied by the label instructions and the soil, whether in the ground, in planters or pots is properly watered so the salts are flushed through them and either deeply into the ground so they are filtered out by the soil or run out the drain holes and are flushed away from the plants, the plants should grow and flower well. Not allowing the drainage water to flush out and away from the pot will increase the salt levels in that soil ball and will eventually inhibit or even kill the plant in the pot. If the drainage water is caught in a saucer so it is drawn back into the pot, each time you water, you're adding salts from the irrigation water. Add fertilizers and you add more salts. The saucer now has salty water in it and when drawn back into the pot, some evaporates off the soil surface and some is absorbed by the plant. Each time that is repeated, it mimics a soup which is boiled all day long to keep it hot, as water boils out into steam the salty soup gets saltier and saltier as the water is boiled out of it until it's too salty to eat. If you've grown house plants and noticed the beige deposits on the soil surface and pot sides, that's the salts building up because the water isn't permitted to flush them out and away from the soil ball. It works the same way outdoors in potted plants. Edit: I also meant to add, this is the disadvantage of "drip irrigation" for areas with alkaline soils, particularly those which have drainage issues. You keep adding "salty" water in too small amounts to flush the salts through the soil, so it builds up in the root zones until the plant is struggling in salty soil. Actual water, so it flushes the salts through the soil and pushes carbon dioxide out of the soil and draws oxygen into it is what Nature provides and what we are best benefited by replicating. I hope I've explained what I was trying to explain sufficiently to help.
Last edited by roseseek Jan 25, 2024 12:48 PM Icon for preview
Avatar for porkpal
Jan 25, 2024 12:24 PM CST
Name: Porkpal
Richmond, TX (Zone 9a)
Cat Lover Charter ATP Member Keeper of Poultry I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Dog Lover Keeps Horses
Roses Plant Identifier Farmer Raises cows Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Garden Ideas: Level 2
This post should be a "must read" for all of us.
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Jan 25, 2024 2:04 PM CST
SW Ohio River Valley (Zone 6b)
I was thinking the same thing!
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Jan 25, 2024 2:08 PM CST
Name: Jan Wax
Philo, Ca (Zone 9a)
Thank you,Roseseek !!!!
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Jan 25, 2024 2:55 PM CST
Name: Elena
Cincinnati, OH (Zone 6b)
Usus est optĭmus magister.
Bird Bath, Fountain and Waterfall Solar Power Seed Starter Roses Organic Gardener Heirlooms
Garden Art Dog Lover Cat Lover Garden Photography Tomato Heads
roseseek, Thank You!
What is your opinion about foliar feeding of roses as a supplemental feeding and fixing some nutrition deficit?
“….the world will be saved by beauty.”
Avatar for roseseek
Jan 25, 2024 4:48 PM CST
(Zone 9b)
Thank you, I'm glad I was able to present it appropriately and you found it useful. @Elena999 I'm all for it. I had a detail gardening gig as a "part time side job" for many years. I only did roses and flowers and left everything else up to the lawn people. I was fortunate to have more clients than I could comfortably service in my "time off" and they loved what I did. I COPIOUSLY mulched and in the gardens where dogs, wild life and client preferences didn't prevent, I used a combination of inorganic pelletized and organic meal fertilizers. The climate was inland valley, mid desert Zone 9b with chilly to a little snow and freezes winter and summers into triple digits with aridity and high alkalinity. I fertilized monthly during warm to hot weather as heat and regular water stimulate soil activity to digest organics rather quickly. In my own garden, an inch of fresh horse manure mulch would literally digest into a thin layer of worm castings in about six weeks. For anything problematic, such as the obligatory Margo Kosters which were planted in several gardens by their creator, to honor a relative of the owners who had passed away, and which I absolutely LOATHE (the rose, I never knew the relative) due to its chronic chlorosis in that climate and the stale cantaloupe flowers which never fully open and clash with the ugly foliage tones, I doused with All Purpose Miracle Gro regularly to help lessen its ugliness. With the monthly applications of Gro-Power Plus 5-3-1 mixed with nearly equal amounts of Grow More Organic All Purpose 5-5-5 and automatic irrigation (I hand broadcast the fertilizer mix and hosed it off the plants when finished), and the heat and sun, everything grew like weeds and flowered madly. I'm pragmatic, whatever fits the budget, works and isn't harmful is just fine with me. For the clients (few, thankfully) who had ethical issues with using non vegetarian organics, I used the Grow More Organic Vegetariann 5-2-2 (Contains no animal, fish or poultry products. Made with cottonseed meal, alfalfa meal, kelp meal and soft rock phosphate.) The regular stuff contains "animal products" which were objectionable to the Vegetarian and Vegan clients. No judgement, just an adjustment to accommodate their preferences. Most of the dog issues occurred in the back yard gardens so the organic and Gro-Power were used in the areas where no dogs would live and only Gro-Power Plus was used where the dogs resided. It contained no pesticides nor fungicides and only one brain donor Golden Retriever was ever attracted to it but that dog ate EVERYTHING. He even chewed the rose bush shanks. When I fertilize here, now, I only use water soluble inorganic. We're down to "only" three retired brood bitch/show dog Toy Fox Terrors. They eat EVERYTHING. "Pet Safe Snail and Slug Bait"? DOG TREAT! In fact, they LOVE crunching on the snails and even the empty shells of the deceased ones. Any kind of organic fertilizer? DOG TREAT! We made the mistake years ago of letting them learn what tomatoes looked and smelled like on the plants. Dogs are often BERSERK for tomatoes, so now EVERYTHING that resembles "tomatoes" are harvested and devoured, including rose hips. Any piece of fruit they can reach, including by climbing into the trees, is THEIRS. "Poop" of ANY kind, is greedily devoured. They aren't attracted to Miracle Gro nor Vigoro Water Soluble so I buy whatever is on sale and with the appropriate guaranteed analysis for what I want. We live in an area where hose nozzles which permit you to turn off the water when not watering a plant as you walk through the yard is required. The Miracle Gro Liquid Hose End Feeder is perfect. It's comfortable and easy to control and offers four different rates and patterns, as well as "off" for when moving from one area to the next. Add you can screw in a bottle of the liquid food to apply where you want it conveniently and it's a win-win. Particularly when WallyWorld (a store I usually don't like visiting) dumped their garden merchandise to make room for "seasonal" stuff and the $20 Feeder and a bottle of food was marked down to $9. They don't last forever, so I bought the final seven they had on hand. When the one in use fails, I'll pull out another new one and merrily go on my way watering and fertilizing.

There is plenty of room for organic and inorganic fertilizer use. Some conditions favor one over the other and if you can combine them, so much the better. The inorganic feeds NOW so the plants get started off faster. The organic requires sufficient heat, moisture and available nitrogen to get the bacteria cooking so they get digested into the form the plants need so they will continue leaching out their nutrients in the longer term until the next application. I do draw the line on using systemic anything. I have to. If a plant can absorb it, so can YOU. If you can SMELL it, you are INHALING it. If you have pets or wild life visits your yard, they can also be poisoned by it, and, if as we do, you have pets, it's far too easy to accidentally poison them with innocently applied toxins. I wash off bugs and shovel prune any plant not happy to be with me. Most mildew and rust issues can be resolved by increasing the water given to that plant. For those unwilling or incapable of cooperating, they simply go away. Fortunately black spot or other spotting issues are only a late season issue here and I expect them on aging foliage. That gets cleaned up when they get pruned so it's a non issue for me. I realize it's totally different in other climates and parts of the country. IF you can focus on the plants and varieties happy to be where you are and let the others go where they can live happily, gardening is SO much easier, cheaper and more enjoyable. Not to mention, potentially healthier.
Last edited by roseseek Jan 25, 2024 8:33 PM Icon for preview
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Jan 25, 2024 7:30 PM CST
Name: Elena
Cincinnati, OH (Zone 6b)
Usus est optĭmus magister.
Bird Bath, Fountain and Waterfall Solar Power Seed Starter Roses Organic Gardener Heirlooms
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@roseseek, wow! Thank you for generously sharing your background and your rose care methods! I completely agree with your emphasis on being mindful of organic/non-organic fertilizers, especially with pets around. It's crucial to be cautious about plant choices and fertilizers.

I'm also cultivating heirloom tomatoes organically, and it's fascinating how the care strategies for tomatoes and roses align. I've found fermented weed tea to be an excellent and cost-effective nitrogen source, despite its rather unpleasant odor. The benefits it brings to both tomatoes and roses make enduring the smell worthwhile. Thumbs up
“….the world will be saved by beauty.”
Avatar for roseseek
Jan 25, 2024 8:24 PM CST
(Zone 9b)
You're welcome @Elena999. If you have dogs, NEVER let them associate "tomato" with the ones on the plants or you will NEVER have another tomato! (or strawberry, or apple, or peach, or plum....) THEY will help themselves to everything that even remotely resembles the fruit! I have to watch which flowers I pollinate because if one of "The Goddesses" can reach the ripening hip, it's HERS. Yes ma'am, tomatoes and roses benefit pretty much from the same fertilizer type. Life certainly is easier when you realize just how few types of fertilizer there really are. Thanks "specialization"!

@USCARTER see if you can find a water wand. Rinsing off the undersides of the rose leaves regularly not only cools the plants during hot weather, but it rehydrates them and makes life there unattractive to spider mites and other insects. In the kind of heat and aridity you experience there, wet foliage shouldn't pose any disease issues for you. Some of the best foliage I ever generated was when I could leave an over head, oscillating sprinkler running for hours, flooding beds in the Santa Clarita Valley, SoCal. It was Zone 9b, mid desert, inland valley heat, often triple digit during the worst of the summer and the roses LOVED it. No sun scald. Lots of water spotted flowers from the sprinkler water, but gorgeous foliage and plants that exploded into growth and bloom. Water is usually the best fungicide, insecticide and definitely fertilizer.
Last edited by roseseek Jan 25, 2024 8:39 PM Icon for preview
Avatar for USCARTER
Jan 27, 2024 4:47 AM CST
Thread OP
Kuwait,
Thank you so much roseseek. This is very, very, very helpful. Thankfully/unfortunately (depending on how you see it), we don't have too many animals (including beneficials) around and our temperatures go as low as 4C (40F). Other than that, we are pretty acclimate 6 months of the year (save summer where it averages 40C (105F). I do have cats and they seemed intrigued by the fish-fertilizer smell but other than constant sniffing, they left the plants alone. Can I use organics (fish fertilizer and Vitax organic rose feed) and if I start to see any sort of deficiency, top up with chemical fertilizers? Perhaps in the summer I can go for chemical fertilizers to prevent the feat and famine phenomenon. I'll look into a water wand and overhead sprinkler...not sure how I could incorporate that considering I am using pots, but I could probably come up with something. I do like to go in with a large misting bottle (used for pesticides but this one is just for water) and mist the underside of the leaves.
Avatar for roseseek
Jan 27, 2024 12:35 PM CST
(Zone 9b)
You're welcome @USCARTER . You can use any type of fertilizers you desire. Just follow the instructions on the labels. As long as your roses are outdoors, you can use the water wand. Of course a lot of the water is going to fall outside of the pots but washing off the undersides of the foliage will have the desired benefits. It's MUCH safer and easier, not to mention CHEAPER than resorting to a miticide to deal with spider mites. And, the roses will LOVE it. Have fun!
Avatar for LittleAnnie
Jan 31, 2024 10:30 AM CST
Name: Patricia
Northeast Ohio (Zone 6a)
You are a wealth of info, Roseseek. Thank you for so much, valuable, information!! Thumbs up
Love covers a multitude of sins......thank God!
Avatar for roseseek
Jan 31, 2024 11:35 AM CST
(Zone 9b)
Thank you, @LittleAnnie, I'm glad it helped.
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