After trying to read thru and absorb all this I do have a few questions now about my Sport.

I am considering registering this plant so I do need answers to a few basic things. I may need to know more along the way since I am totally out of my element and have no clue on how this works!! The reason I want to do this is to show my granddaughters that sometimes a door opens for some reason. You may not know why and it may not really be of a benefit for yourself, but it may be of benefit or valuable to some one else at a later time.

I still have no interest in dabbing pollen. In fact I picked all the seeds off last night that were developing. But if I can contribute something....I want to do the right thing.

1. I have 2 fans showing different traits so would I register them both as 1 plant or would they each be considered an individual sport?

2. So what/how would the parentage be listed? Flasher x Flasher or Flasher x unknown?

3. Am I the Hybridizer even though this is a sport?

Thank you for any help with this!!

Claudia said:I am considering registering this plant so I do need answers to a few basic things.

To be certain that the plants maintain their appearance you should grow them for a year or two before considering registering the sport.

1. I have 2 fans showing different traits so would I register them both as 1 plant or would they each be considered an individual sport?

You probably should separate the two fans and grow each of them into a clump to check that they do consistently show different traits before considering registering them. I expect that when you have many scapes blooming at the same time in clumps from the two different fans that they do not show consistently different flower traits.

2. So what/how would the parentage be listed? Flasher x Flasher or Flasher x unknown?

That is probably a question for the American Hemerocallis Society. The plants are not new hybrids and have the same parentage as 'Flasher' does if they are consistent sports.

3. Am I the Hybridizer even though this is a sport?

Again a question for the American Hemerocallis Society as the plants were not hybridized/bred/etc. They are selected from a named registered growing plant so you could be described as the selector. If you introduce the plants to commerce you could be described as the introducer. However, I don't think either of those terms are used any more.

This page gives useful information about registering a daylily
http://www.daylilies.org/AHSre...

I think you are likely still in the waiting period, to determine if the yellow-flower is really is a sport? At the moment, it sounds like the fan is undisturbed and still part of a clump where it might not be able to sort out if it is connected to the same crown as the original fan, or an offshoot by rhizome, either of which would be compelling documentation that it is a sport. In other words, unless and until the clump is dug and examined (with camera/video handy) ... it still could be a seed that simply dropped and grew into its yellow-flower within a different color's clump. And, if it is shown to be connected to the same crown (possibly a sport, then), have you seen additional yellow flowers to know that the yellow coloration is stable?

For the split-color fan, I'm not sure that mutating to split-colors creates a new cultivar, but others will know better how registration interprets this event. I think the question is more about whether it is stable (all buds showing the split). If not, and it reverts to the color of the original fan, then is it may still the original cultivar that may sometimes display a split-color flower or two. There are a lot of those around, sometimes but not always showing the split, and I don't know of any that have been given registration status as a different cultivar than the original.

Can you update us more about whether you wanted to dig and carefully divide in order to determine if the yellow flower if connected? And if it has produced additional yellow flowers that show a stable color/pattern? Same for the split color, at least on the stability of additional flowers question?

Okay......Thank You Maurice! I do want to do this correctly and that gets me started in the right direction.

T

Maurice, can you clarify if you feel certain the yellow flowered fan would be a sport without determining if it is connected to the original plant? It seems that this possibility is being assumed by virtue of split-flowers showing up, rather than examining a connection to the original fan/s, and I'm not sure I've heard how that confirms the yellow is automatically a sport? It certainly seems plausible to me that it is, or I would never have nudged for more information at the start of this ... but as far as I can tell there is no follow-up yet to include a step to examine what is connected to what at the crown/rhizome level?

The fan with the yellow flower bloomed yesterday again yellow (took photos). The split one is blooming today showing some split color again. Need to take a photo but have had rain this morning. I am still torn about digging or leave it alone for another year at least and see what happens.

This needs more time to answer more question I guess..

Claudia said:Okay......Thank You Maurice! I do want to do this correctly and that gets me started in the right direction.

T

You are very welcome, Claudia.

In a quick browse of the American Hemerocallis Society (AHS) website I saw the term "originator". Perhaps, you may be classified as the originator of a new cultivar (if consistent),

Daylilies grow in different ways. Although some produce solid crowns with many fans, others produce much looser crowns with fans that are easily separated and often over time become completely naturally separated. It is possible that since there are two unusual fans that the event(s) occurred some time ago and it is possible that those fans are not completely joined at the crown with the normal 'Flasher' or that have separated. That may or may not mean that they could be from dropped seeds from natural pollinations. Other evidence may be used to determine whether they are sports. The presence of flowers with the original 'Flasher' colour suggests that they are sports, even if those appear only in sections of the flowers. The size of the flowers, the height of the scapes, the time of flowering, etc. may also be evidence.

Yes, I would think waiting until the clump matures would somewhat muddy the picture for the reasons Maurice noted - I have seen how once-connected fans eventually establish their own root system and disengage from the original fan. At that point, I don't see how it would be easy to say it is a sport unless it reverts, in whole or part, back to show the original flower. And, if that occurs ... that may also mean it is no longer a sport (its reverted).

Also you noted earlier in this thread that is is about 7-8 mature fans ... were they fans that blossomed earlier for the friend who gave them to you? If so, it might need AHS to determine who would be considered the originator?

Even the type and duration of evidence needed to establish sport or split would need to come from AHS, and unless you find that out from them ealier rather than later it may be that you might miss an opportunity. Thus, the hopeful nudge to you that this may be an important cultivar ... but also that research (AHS) and actions may need to follow in a timely fashion if you are up to pursuing it.

chalyse said:Maurice, can you clarify if you feel certain the yellow flowered fan would be a sport without determining if it is connected to the original plant? It seems that this possibility is being assumed by virtue of split-flowers showing up, rather than examining a connection to the original fan/s

The fan with the split coloured flowers is difficult to explain by a simple dropped seed from a natural pollination. That is emphasized if those split coloured flowers are the same size, shape, etc., and have parts of the flower with exactly the same colour as the original Flasher. If also the fan with the solid yellow flowers has flowers that are the same size, shape, flowering time, scape height, etc., as both the original Flasher and the fan with the split coloured flowers and the yellow colour is exactly the same shade as the yellow portions on the split coloured fan then again that would be quite difficult to explain simply by a dropped seed.

At the moment, from the photos, my opinion is that a sport of some sort has occurred. Whether it is consistent from year to year in those fans is a different question. It would be good if many photos were taken of Flasher flowers, and flowers blooming on the same days on the two unusual fans. It would also be good if measurements were taken of flower sizes, scape heights, time that first flower opened, etc.,

Indeed, it seems very important to separate discussion and advice on the three possible fan types in the clump, as at least the possible sport and split fans may have very separate requirements to establish what they might be. And, AHS needs to be contacted to determine if they have requirements in place, and what those are, so that steps would not be lost, particularly in the case of the possible sport which may need some further examination to establish that it is from the original cultivar. The possible stable split fan/s, of course, if they remain stable, may be another case, though parentage might be just as questioned if there is no timely examination and documentation of how the clump is structured?

It may be that AHS, by virtue of being formed at core as a naming registry, does not sort out these kinds of questions about parentage for possible sports, or decide if verification of origination truly establishes a different color fan in a clump as a new sport, mutated color/pattern,etc. But, not having seen how the other sport was handled (and in the technological age that may no longer apply anyhow), and also not having ever seen any of the many split color type registered before, perhaps it is good to find out if they do have something in place to support a new registration's information (like pedigree registries do)?

Unfortunately 'Willy' was hybridized by Saxton and registered without parentage. He also found 'Willy Nilly' and registered it so there probably were no questions or problems associated with the 'Willy' - 'Willy Nilly' registrations.

The unusual fans can presumably be registered with a cultivar name and lacking parentage. The question of whether they are or are not sports of 'Flasher' would probably not affect their registration in that manner.

Yes, a very different time and place for Willy and Willy Nilly. Anyhow, the message seems clear that for now, contacting AHS to find out what they may require, and how they would determine originator in the case of acceptance, would best be done as timely as possible. Then, depending on what they require, perhaps some possible closer examination, and for sure more time and lots of documentation (visual and data) to establish credence even beyond the walls of AHS. Otherwise, it could be perceived (rightly or wrongly) as the yellow fan being yet another cultivar getting mixed into the clump, and registered under a new name without parents (or a seed dropped - in either case, not a sport of the original). That might be one reason why registration without parentage may not be very trusted, and why establishing some connection for a rare or previously undocumented event in daylilies would pretty much answer all questions. So, if digging and dividing is not going to happen before the fans mature further, it may not be taken that there is much interest in establishing credibility.

I know how hesitant we all can be with digging and dividing, but I think as long as the fans were handled gently and well cared for after diving, that like most cultivars it would fare as well (or as badly) after division as it would in the current clump.

On the other hand, if there are no further AHS requirements than the usual, and if Claudia really just wants this as an example/experience for her daughter, rather than establishing it as an accepted documentation of sports or mutations happening in daylilies, then ... well ... it could be a great way to get a young person involved in celebrating what she intended! In that case it might be just as important to register it in a timely manner to keep the idea focused on a family event, rather than a case of documentation for wider reference and use.

Claudia, the best thing to do is follow the advice Maurice has posted on how to handle your plant and observe it for possible future registration as a mutation of 'Flasher'. There is plenty of time to work out the details needed if and when the time comes for registration. As Maurice has stated this would not be the first time a mutation has been registered, AHS has does this before.

Claudia, I'm going to toss something in here for whatever it's worth. We all know I am not a hybridizer but I can tell you that even though my daylilies might be a hundred years old and mostly unnamed, they are gorgeous and beautiful always. In other words, I can grow the best daylilies ever, NOIDs or not.

So with that experience in mind, I don't dig or divide this late in the season even though I am in a warmer zone than you. You know what our past winter was like, yours was even worse than mine. Daylilies need to have established roots before our wintry ups and downs begin. That means that I surely would not dig nor divide your amazing 'discovery' right now. Not with our unpredictable winters ahead of us. Just my thoughts, but first frost is just around the corner for you.

Juli's weather is more closely related to yours, she can better advise you about that. I'm just sayin' . . .

If this were my plant, I think I would mark the alien scapes with colored duct tape, dig the plant, soak it in a bucket of water for a couple of days so it is easier to completely separate out the different fans. Grow them separately but near the mama clump (mark them well) and see what you have.

I can tell you that the new flowers are blooming along with the normal Flasher. I am taking lots of photos. All the scapes on all fans are of the same height. Will most some new photos tomorrow showing the whole clump.

Just to keep you all up to date these are photos from this week. The purpose is to create a documentation trail that might be needed later.

These two were taken on 7/22/14




Taken 7/23/14

Maurice - May I inquire as to what environmental conditions might possibly cause something like this to happen?

When I saw the photos, I immediately thought it was caused by something in the environment of this clump of daylilies.

beckygardener said:...what environmental conditions might possibly cause something like this to happen?

We do not specifically know. Stress of some sort, so perhaps very high temperatures, very low temperatures, or other sorts of stresses. Some specific chemicals may also cause effects like these, although I would not expect any of those chemicals to be in a garden.

We may need to separate what may cause the sectoring to start in comparison to what may cause the sectoring to either continue or to stop.

We should expect to see some sectoring, although it may be rare to extremely rare, in any plant that genetically carries both the ability to make pigments and to not make pigments. But we also may expect some sectoring in plants that make pigments and do not have the ability to not make the pigments. That is because the gene(s) that are involved in making pigments must be switched on at the right times and in the right locations in the daylily. So we see purple pigment in the flower petals but only in the outer most layers of the petal (not in the inner layers). We see yellow pigment in the pollen but not in the leaf, and so on. That means the genes to make the yellow pigment that is seen in pollen are not switched on in the leaf. They do their job in the pollen but not the leaf. The environment of the plant cells make the genes switch on or keeps them off. And influences from outside the plant can affect the environment within the plant cells. So if a gene should have been switched on in the petal to make purple pigment but the outside environment disturbed the cell environment enough to not switch that gene on in some cells (but other cells were able to switch the gene on) then we may see a sector.
Sectors happen, seemingly at random in daylily flowers at any time. I went outside just now and walked my garden. I found two flowers with sectors. I am not a good photographer but I tried taking a photograph of one of them. There is a yellow sector visible on one petal. Usually I scan the individual petals of the flowers because there seem to be fewer problems with scans versus photos (at least for me). The sectored petal is in the upper right and the petal colours are more correct in the scans than they are in the photo. This plant has never sectored before, as far as I can remember, and may never sector again. The sector may have been caused by some temporary environmental effect or by some temporary genetic effect. As far as I know, no researcher has looked at these sorts of events in any plant species (they presumably all show such sectoring in appropriate conditions).

Sectoring may be caused by some unknown environmental effects or some genetic effects and may be temporary, one-off events or unstable or stable more permanent events.

I always sort of wondered about your avatar Maurice. Now I know.