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Jun 1, 2015 6:38 PM CST
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
Frugal Gardener Garden Procrastinator I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest
Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database.
Are you selling any cherry tomato seedlings?
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Jun 1, 2015 8:12 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Julia
Washington State (Zone 7a)
Hydrangeas Photo Contest Winner 2018 Garden Photography Region: Pacific Northwest Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Forum moderator
Plant Database Moderator I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Dog Lover Sempervivums Container Gardener Foliage Fan
No, just flowers.
Sempervivum for Sale
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Jun 2, 2015 2:09 PM CST
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
Frugal Gardener Garden Procrastinator I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest
Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database.
Thanks, Julia.
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Jun 3, 2015 10:45 PM CST
Name: Jewell
South Puget Sound (Zone 7a)
Cottage Gardener Dragonflies Ferns Hellebores Permaculture Region: Pacific Northwest
Ponds
RickCorey said:Are you selling any cherry tomato seedlings?

Too bad you aren't close. I have so many good sized volunteer cherry tomato seedlings in the garden this year I am pulling them like weeds. Some are 12-18 inches tall. Crazy weather year.
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Jun 4, 2015 3:33 PM CST
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
Frugal Gardener Garden Procrastinator I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest
Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database.
I always wondered why I had ZERO volunteers in a bed where many Stupice tomatoes fell and rotted.

I figure it was either that I did some raking and turning that fall or the next spring, had some bark mulch, and that bed is a little close to the water table in winter ... they may have rotted in the soil.

Or the slugs are consistent enough to mow down EVERY volunteer seedling that isn't a recognized weed.
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Jun 4, 2015 11:43 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Julia
Washington State (Zone 7a)
Hydrangeas Photo Contest Winner 2018 Garden Photography Region: Pacific Northwest Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Forum moderator
Plant Database Moderator I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Dog Lover Sempervivums Container Gardener Foliage Fan
Here's a few pictures from to day. Thinking of you today Deb, a few plants from you.
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Thumb of 2015-06-05/springcolor/c9a3d6


Thumb of 2015-06-05/springcolor/528667
Thank you these plants are wonderful.

Thumb of 2015-06-05/springcolor/585339



Heucherella 'Cracked Ice'


Mary Alice Stokes

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Thumb of 2015-06-05/springcolor/983697
I love the craz foliage of this one.
Sempervivum for Sale
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Jun 5, 2015 4:14 PM CST
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
Frugal Gardener Garden Procrastinator I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest
Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database.
The second photo looks exactly like a Pacific Giant Delphinium I had once, even the color.

Mine lasted 2-3 years, taller and bushier each year, then vanished.


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Jun 5, 2015 6:29 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Julia
Washington State (Zone 7a)
Hydrangeas Photo Contest Winner 2018 Garden Photography Region: Pacific Northwest Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Forum moderator
Plant Database Moderator I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Dog Lover Sempervivums Container Gardener Foliage Fan

It's this and the slugs don't eat it either. Love it.
Sempervivum for Sale
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Jun 6, 2015 8:40 AM CST
Name: Deb
Planet Earth (Zone 8b)
Region: Pacific Northwest Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level
Thanks for the photos. I am without a computer so no pics, but am enjoying this thread.
I want to live in a world where the chicken can cross the road without its motives being questioned.
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Jun 8, 2015 9:59 AM CST
Name: Mary Stella
Chester, VA (Zone 7b)
Dahlias Canning and food preservation Lilies Peonies Permaculture Ponds
Garden Ideas: Level 2
Rick, I had the same thing with my Pacific Giants. I ordered the New Millenium from New Zealand and they are going on several years now. They get to be about 7'. Problem is that when the wind comes up over they go. I have them fenced in but I think that binding them to tall canes would work better.

Could you tell me again how you break up hard pan clay. A friend moved out to the valley and her house is surrounded by what might as well be concrete. Cannot dig in it.
From -60 Alaska to +100 Virginia. Wahoo
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Jun 9, 2015 12:32 PM CST
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
Frugal Gardener Garden Procrastinator I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest
Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database.
I put a wire hoop around mine, maybe 3-4 feet tall, and that supported it enough. The stems got pretty thick, but I should mention I do NOT have high winds, hardly ever.

I suspect that soggy feet in winter did mine in. That bed is somewhat low-lying, or rather that part of the yard drains worse than most. The only place to cut a drainage trench for that bed would be on the neighbor's property, and I haven't negotiated for that (yet). I have a LONG to-do list for when I retire!

Oberon46 said:... Could you tell me again how you break up hard pan clay. A friend moved out to the valley and her house is surrounded by what might as well be concrete. Cannot dig in it.


Well, there ARE types of clay even worse than what I'm familiar with: I've read about "caliche". I hope that "hard pan" is not caliche. But if it is "just normal clay", or "compacted clayey soil" ...

I think of it as two problems.

- True clay needs to be "diluted" with organic matter and silt or fines. Good loam should have less than 30% clay. If you can add two parts of soil amendments for every one part of clay, pulverize and mix everything, you can have great soil overnight. But that's expensive! Maybe there are ways to get by with less compost and other amendments until plant roots and worms create stable, aerated soil.

- Not everyone agrees, but clayey soil benefits from added grit and coarse fibers. They form a "support scaffold" to hold open larger air spaces.

1.
Pure clay and clayey soil need to be "diluted" with organic matter, fines and silt.

As it is, pure clay is too hard when dry for roots, but too sticky and flowing when wet to maintain any kind of open space for aeration.

Mixing it intimately with compost, raw materials for compost, silt, or fine sand makes the clay less sticky and more friable and a LITTLE more open.

However, when clay is soft and "flowing" or tends to slump down, it can't support air spaces. The clay oozes and flows into each crevice or pore and fills it - like sealing a jar airtight. The clay becomes anaerobic again.

For example, suppose you roto-tilled a bed and reduced it to small "clay balls" with air space between each ball. Because the clay is soft and pliable, each ball deforms to allow the bed to subside. The air spaces shrink in size. The clay is probably soft enough to flow further into remaining voids and squeeze ALL the air out!

My theory is that fine sand or other grains or fibers much smaller than 1 mm mixed well into the clay give the clay phase itself a little stiffness - hopefully enough to slow down the rate at which clay slumps and subsides to fill in air voids.

They also make the clay clods less sticky, so they don't weld together as soon as they touch each other while moist.

When the clay is "diluted" with compost, it also becomes more friable so you CAN break it up into tiny clods and mix it with amendments. You can till it ("fluff it up") to mix air into it like an omelet. You might have to "fluff it up" again each year or after each crop, for a few years, until you repair the clay even further. I firm it down SLIGHTLY again after fluffing it up, hoping to form a stable matrix with some air spaces, that will survive being rained on.

(Always add some mulch on top of clayey soil, or rain will pound the surface into a mud-clay-slurry which it will dry into an air-tight clay crust.)

Therefore: first, second and third: add lots of compost. As much as you have or can afford, say up to 50% on the first round.

Bark fines, unfinished compost and other finely divided organic materials are almost as good as finished compost for mixing with clay. Even sawdust or fine wood shavings might be added if they've been composted first, enough to minimize nitrogen deficit.

If you can dig up the clay and till the compost in well, mixing it finely the first year and "fluffing it up" then firming it while semi-dryish, you might save a year or so in reaching loose, open soil.

If you don't have enough finished compost on hand to put down a 9" layer and then till it under 18" to make an 18" deep bed of 50% compost / 50% clay, no problem. Add what compost you have, then cover it with as much organic mulch as you can afford. Even wood chips will decompose over time and add OM to the clay.

And/or sheet compost in place.
Or use the future site of a raised bed as the current site of a compost heap.

If you have to layer the compost and mulch on TOP of the clay because it'/s too hard to work, that's OK too, just wait for rain and worms to carry it down into the clay over months and years, to loosen it enough that you can turn it over NEXT year or the year after.

Patience is easier than deep-turning hard clay! But it takes longer to turn the hard clay into loose, open, aerated, fertile soil if you wait for the worms to come and then get busy. Many people swear by no-till methods, even for creating a new bed from clayey soil.

You might be able to grow for one year in the layer of compost on top of the clay! At least some kind of cover crop like buckwheat or anything with lots of roots. Clover?

A "Lasagna style" bed would call for a very thick layer of newspapers, or 1-2 layers of corrugated cardboard laid down first. That is said to suppress weeds or even grass, and attract worms. Then lay the compost and whatever else you have on top of the cardboard. Then plant right in the compost. (I would watch it closely for slugs. It sounds like Slug Heaven to me, but I haven't tried "Lasagna style".)


2.
When the clay IS soft enough to dig, my approach differs from many people's.

Some say that adding coarse sand or grit or bark fibers or composted wood chips to hard clay makes concrete, but I see it differently.

I think the grit adds air spaces *IF* the amount of compost is almost adequate. A little grit provides more structure and aeration when you don't have a lot of compost.

I like to add 10-20% coarse stuff (grit, bark, crushed stone, or sandy or gritty sub-soil), and mix that somewhat with the clayey soil, so that the coarse grains, chips, shreds and fibers help support air spaces mechanically.

- Clay without enough compost is hopeless whether you add grit or not. It's either a pudding that turns to rock when dry, or a gritty pudding that turns to concrete when dry. Same thing.

- Clay plus literally 50 - 70% compost, renewed every year, might not NEED any more help, but who can add 6-8 inches of compost every year?

- Clay plus only 20-30% compost does NOT maintain open air spaces. It slumps, sticks, flows, welds together and squeezes the air out like it was toothpaste in a tube.

However, I think, clay mixed well with 20-30% compost , PLUS another 10-20% grit or grit-sized bark has MUCH better aeration than clay + 20-30% compost with no grit.

And grit lasts forever, or bark lasts 3-4 years. Now you can maintain the soil by adding less compost every year, because the clay has a lattice of grit and fibers to support open air spaces.

The added grit also makes the clay balls easier to break up and keep separate (more friable, or at least less sticky). Sometimes I think of fine sand "dusting" tiny clay balls like confectioners sugar keeping sticky candies from sticking together.
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Jun 11, 2015 8:25 AM CST
Name: Mary Stella
Chester, VA (Zone 7b)
Dahlias Canning and food preservation Lilies Peonies Permaculture Ponds
Garden Ideas: Level 2
Wow. That was some answer. You should write a book about soil amendments and types. Thanks. I have cut and pasted it into word to send to my friend. I am a little doubtful that she is such a dedicated gardener that she would go through all that but maybe in just one or two small areas by the house where she could plant some flowers. Thanks again.
From -60 Alaska to +100 Virginia. Wahoo
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Jun 11, 2015 11:29 AM CST
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
Frugal Gardener Garden Procrastinator I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest
Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database.
You are very welcome. Making fertile soil from dead dirt is my main reason for gardening: the flowers and food are less interesting to me.

As you can see, it's a major fetish!

>> I am a little doubtful that she is such a dedicated gardener that she would go through all that

Well, the low-effort path would be to drop a lot of compost-makin's on top of the areas where she wants to grow things. Sheet composting.

Like make a shallow compost heap over the largest area she has enough raw material to cover. Keep adding to the layer ever time she has more leaves, lawn clippings, newspaper, coffee grounds or fruit-stand-rejects.

Then wait a year or two.
Then deeply till in more organic matter and/or grit.
(double digging or a chisel plow or DEEP roto-tilling)

Then add more compost and mulch every year. At least one inch of compost and 2 inches of mulch.

OK, I guess that IS a lot of work too!

The lowest-effort approach would be to triple the amount of compost and mulch she uses now. But how long would that take to overcome hardpan, without some major breaking or deep cutting? Double-digging is probably not an option, and I doubt she has a chisel plow in her back pocket either.

Making raised beds, and buying soil might be the only low-effort solution to hardpan.

If I were her, I would look for someone willing to dig deeply in return for vegetables or cooked meals.
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Jun 12, 2015 9:01 AM CST
Name: Mary Stella
Chester, VA (Zone 7b)
Dahlias Canning and food preservation Lilies Peonies Permaculture Ponds
Garden Ideas: Level 2
Rolling on the floor laughing Carol?? Cook a meal?? Ummmm not going to happen. She simply does not cook -- anything except the occasional chocolate zuchini loaf.
From -60 Alaska to +100 Virginia. Wahoo
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Jun 24, 2015 1:23 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: Julia
Washington State (Zone 7a)
Hydrangeas Photo Contest Winner 2018 Garden Photography Region: Pacific Northwest Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Forum moderator
Plant Database Moderator I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Dog Lover Sempervivums Container Gardener Foliage Fan
Blooms around the garden
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Thumb of 2015-06-24/springcolor/a55117
Sempervivum for Sale
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Jun 25, 2015 8:58 AM CST
Name: Mary Stella
Chester, VA (Zone 7b)
Dahlias Canning and food preservation Lilies Peonies Permaculture Ponds
Garden Ideas: Level 2
What is planted in the rock (yellow) and what is the red trumpet (downward facing) bloom. All are lovely.
From -60 Alaska to +100 Virginia. Wahoo
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Jun 25, 2015 9:12 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: Julia
Washington State (Zone 7a)
Hydrangeas Photo Contest Winner 2018 Garden Photography Region: Pacific Northwest Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Forum moderator
Plant Database Moderator I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Dog Lover Sempervivums Container Gardener Foliage Fan
The yellow is sedum 'Angelina' and the other is Cape Fuchsia (Phygelius 'African Queen'). The hummers love that cape fuchsia. Thank You! Mary Stella.
Sempervivum for Sale
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Jun 25, 2015 7:48 PM CST
Name: Mary Stella
Chester, VA (Zone 7b)
Dahlias Canning and food preservation Lilies Peonies Permaculture Ponds
Garden Ideas: Level 2
Oh, yes. I have seen Angelina. I looked up Cape Fuchsia but it is only good down to zone 7. Not going to work here. Thanks for the info Julia;
From -60 Alaska to +100 Virginia. Wahoo
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Jun 25, 2015 7:54 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Julia
Washington State (Zone 7a)
Hydrangeas Photo Contest Winner 2018 Garden Photography Region: Pacific Northwest Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Forum moderator
Plant Database Moderator I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Dog Lover Sempervivums Container Gardener Foliage Fan
Thumbs up
Sempervivum for Sale
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Jun 26, 2015 11:40 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Julia
Washington State (Zone 7a)
Hydrangeas Photo Contest Winner 2018 Garden Photography Region: Pacific Northwest Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Forum moderator
Plant Database Moderator I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Dog Lover Sempervivums Container Gardener Foliage Fan
More pictures!
Thumb of 2015-06-27/springcolor/311a1e Noid Phlox and Hydrangea.

Thumb of 2015-06-27/springcolor/475551


Thumb of 2015-06-27/springcolor/d641cc Like the horse tail I missed? Grumbling

Thumb of 2015-06-27/springcolor/cc4af8 Laeled as Salvia Glimmer but its not.

Thumb of 2015-06-27/springcolor/3be2e6


Thumb of 2015-06-27/springcolor/ed2790 Sunset Ready for the cooker tomorrow! 92 in the Seattle area!
Sempervivum for Sale

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