I went through the program in my county and took every Friday off from work to attend class for the duration. I completed the course which was heavily tied to chemical controls and inputs. One entire week focused on 'turf management'. I graduated and began to do the volunteer hours which required more time off work and was more suited to a retirees schedule. A change in the program administrator resulted in my (and a few other) volunteer records vanishing. I wasn't able to restore my records despite more time off work to meet with the new administration. I finally wrote a letter of concern to the state about the situation and did not receive a reply. Several years later I got an invitation to apply for the Master Gardener program.

All this to say that there are many local garden projects which would value your time and energy and likely accommodate your family schedule. I'd recommend almost anything over the Master Gardener program. Your county may be a wonderful exception but I'd check them out thoroughly before investing time, money and energy. My $.02 cents worth - YMMV

My county is certainly the exception then. It doesn't hurt to live at the doorsteps of Mississippi State University. This is where the coarse originates and is simultaneously videoed to all the other counties. The state extension service's home office is here in Starkville. But I did take the coarse when I retired and until then, I surely would not have had the time to either take the coarse or volunteer my time afterwards.

I think that any "group" with more than 2-3 members tends to become clique-ish and dogmatic self-impressed. The few that escape that fate are to be applauded.

The idea that ANY group of gardeners could agree on many things suggests that someone, somewhere, is telling people what to think and do if they want to become "Masters". I would have a problem the first time a teacher laid down the law and said "believe this or get out", I would get out. Even if I already believed it!

I have not yet checked out the WA MG program, but some advice I got once about Calcium and tomatoes seemed to contradict what was said by online people I respected. So I'm suspending judgement until I have time to check out the classes and meet the volunteer requirement. (When I retire).

But if they have a requirement that I have to give advice that starts with "here is how it IS", I can't do that. I could only say "these kinds of people tend to think this is the answer, those kinds of people think THAT is the answer. Here's what I do and why... I heard about someone who think THIS works well in THAT region ..."

You know, like Tolkein said: "Go not to the Elves for advice, for they will say both Yes and No."

Maybe in states where the program has become rude and arrogant, or not focused on the kind of gardening that many hobbyists or "green people" are interested in, we need to organize a less "masterful" group.

But maybe we would need to avoid "organizing" and "dogma" to stay informal and friendly.

I have a great idea!

If some kind person would set up, maintain and continuously improve a really great website, and create goodwill and friendliness by setting an excellent example and correcting trolls, then all the NICE gardeners who want to garden and help other gardeners would come to that website, and hang out there, and help each other ...

... and it could be named "All Things Plants".

I'm with you, Rick. I hate group work and even worse, cliques. But I love to learn and I loved school. But I hated group work in school. I would love to learn everything I could about plants and I need that structured environment to do that. I just hope I have a mind that works by the time I get there. I feel myself slipping every day.

Rick, I am disappointed in you. You apparently disregard any grouping larger than 2 that can be fair, effective, and even, benevolent. Of all the dozens upon dozens of caring, helpful volunteer programs out there, you are simply stating that none are worth your while. That's sad. Master Gardeners are not told what to think. They are not liberal college courses, for God's sake. Our "mother" is our Extension Service, and yes, the Extension Service works side-by-side with our university horticultural PhD's. Boy, that's a real problem, huh? Horticulture based on scientific principals. Perhaps you need to do a bit more research on what Extension Services really do and what their basic foundation is built upon.

I am sorry. It took me the longest to even comment on Master Gardeners, and now I wish I had never responded. I know there are bad apples in every organization, and the larger the organization, the better the chance of those bad apples. I think we have a wonderful program here in Mississippi and I greatly respect those that work for the Extension Service and those that serve as volunteers.

Ken, I'm pretty sure we are all happy that you -- and everyone else who has related their experience -- responded.

It seems pretty clear that "results may vary."

In a way I would like to do the program -- for one thing, like Ken, it is my alma mater (Michigan State Univ., in my case) that runs the show. But I'm not really clear on what it would do for me in the long run... and it would be a lot of time taken away from my own garden, to say nothing of the fee, and I have only so much money and energy to spend. So, for me, the jury is still out on the whole thing...

Rick, I knew there was something I liked about you... quoting Tolkien, "You know, like Tolkein said: "Go not to the Elves for advice, for they will say both Yes and No." "

I agree with Weedwhacker (results may vary), and apologize if my initial response might be viewed as a negative. I only meant to encourage folks to explore their local MG program before jumping in. What may not have been a good fit for me could well be perfect for someone else. And certainly no disrespect to all MGs out there. (Thumping hand to forehead...)

@Bubbles were you at the state conference in Belton last weekend?

Felder Rushing was one of the speakers. @drdawg I think that he started the MG program in your state.

I originally got into MG program for selfish reasons. Mainly to learn aspects of horticulture that I did not learn growing up. And after completing the MG certification, I continued for selfish reasons and have completed the specialist programs for things that I wanted to do in my own yard (plant propagation, greenhouse management, irrigation efficiency, landscape design, composting, and home fruit specialist programs). Through the last 7 years I have began and change my landscape three times, finally settling on Edible Landscaping. That is how I met Dave and Trish at one of their talks on the subject. Even though I live on 1/2 acre I am also incorporating some of the Permaculture ideas.

Master Gardeners is as I have been trained a volunteer organization to assist the Ag Extension Service in our communities. Like all other "groups" I have been involved with over the years, whether it is a Baptist Church, Lions Club, School Board and others, you get out of it what you put into it. Yes, there are those who want to control everything, there are those who want to be involved but do nothing and a lot of good folks in-between. It doesn't work for everyone, but the ones I have seen and the MGs I know from other states, I have to say that I am proud to be in the program.

Sorry it doesn't fit for some of you and sorry some of you have had bad experiences.

Oh, and much to my wife's dismay I now have joined the local Herb Society mainly to gain more knowledge in growing herbs which a key to my edible landscaping.

@drdawg you need to come see us in Texas!!

Oh and those of you close around, Walker Co MG is putting on an all day event Oct 16. Pollinators - a Gardening Symposium. Felder Rushing will be our keynote speaker, we will also have Henry Flowers (herbs), Chris Moore (state beekeepers) and Dotty Woodson (water conservation). And on the 17th we will have our annual Butterly Festival and do a tag and release of Monarch butterflies. (We are a Monarch whaystation) Save the Date!!

I don't know, Duane. I only became a MGV two years ago and don't remember anything about the history of the Mississippi program.

How close is Huntsville to College Station, Duane? I travel there for a football game the first weekend in October.

Different programs probably be have their own ways of decimanating gardening information. At the phone desk here, if a person had a few tomato problems, we would flip through the cabinet of handouts, find something that might help, read it to them and offer to send the info to them along with a message from the extension agent. If they needed names of arborists, we would send a list of those recommended. If something was eating their roses and they wanted to kill them, we would send a list of organic ways to treat and also chemicals that could keep them in check. Nearly everything that was asked of the person at the desk was answered by offering to send information to them by the ext. agent.

We would get some fairly strange requests and questions. "When can you come out and plant a couple of trees for me?" "Can you send someone out from the tv station to do a story on my tangerine tree because no one is supposed to be able to grow them here?" And so on. We would tell those asking for free labor that we were there to offer information but still try to give them suggestions where to look for someone to plant a tree. All calls that came in were answered courteously, even when the callers weren't pleasant, and some were really bizarre.

Of course, this was in prehistoric time before we were allowed to access the gigantic office computer. Now I'm sure it's much easier to pull it up on a computer, hopefully at the info desk.

As for being "cliquish," that would be like herding cats! MGs are people who love to garden, some who do and some who need to learn how. Farmers, apartment dwellers, animal lovers, deer haters, organic gardeners, and those who kill anything that crawled, all wanting to learn a little more and hopefully help others be successful in their gardens. I would liken MGs to any group of people who come together. You like some and and you don't care to be around others. You wouldn't leave ATP because a few people were "know it alls." You'd just distance yourself from them.

As for the title "Master Gardener," I have to giggle if someone believes it after three or four months of lectures. When I go back through photos of my garden, I see more plants that I have killed, than survivors! Now I'm stepping off my tiny soapbox and going out into my hail damaged backyard to salvage what's left.

@Poohdaddy We cross posted! I had just hit "send," when I saw I was tagged. Looks like we were thinking along the same lines. I just took longer to send.

Well said, Sandi.

Ken, thanks for pointing out that I might have gone too far, or that what I said sounded more negative than I intended.

>> I think that any "group" with more than 2-3 members tends to become clique-ish and dogmatic self-impressed. The few that escape that fate are to be applauded.

"Tends to", not "all of them are".

>> I have not yet checked out the WA MG program

I should have added "and I know even less about MG programs in states where I don;t live".

My intention in most of the rest of my post was to say what I, personally, would have a problem with in ANY program that teaches that there is only ONE answer to questions about anything as complex and varied from person to person as home gardening.

I think we all agree that any 3 gardeners have at least 4 opinions about the best way to do anything.

You pointed out that MG programs derive information from universities. True. However, I notice that, despite access to those same sources of scientific information, that there are still multiple opinions - not only about "the best way for a hobbyist to do something, given their circumstances, desires, energy levels and budget.

Even the underlying science or reality is disagreed upon, for example "organic people" vs "fertilizers and herbicides". Some people think only native varieties "should" be planted. Others want to create rare and beautiful plantings of exotic things. Others want to produce fresh food cheaply.

What I notice online is that hardly anything has just one, universally-agreed-upon-answer.


I wish I had not conveyed the impression that I thought "all MGs are dogmatic or doctrinaire". What I should have said more clearly is that my experience with groups is that bureaucratic behavior and dogmatic opinions are unintentionally encouraged in a group setting, and it often tends to bring out the worst in people.

Or I could have said that any organization that tries to present just one set of answers to gardening questions is trying to do something that I would find very uncomfortable for myself.

Overall, I mostly agree with you for dumping on what you thought I meant. But mostly, I didn't want to go as far as you heard in my post.

In one area, though, we may very well disagree. Let's see. I'll try to beat-to-death the area that I think we disagree about.

>> Boy, that's a real problem, huh? Horticulture based on scientific principals.

The distance between what is provable in a controlled lab setting, and advice for real-world questions where the human factor is paramount, is huge.

Scientists can reach reasonable consensus about principles only when they talk about highly controlled, specific situations. Experiments. And generalizations SO high-order that their application to specific situations is not even the same FIELD (science) ... applications are engineering.

Gardening is somewhere between engineering and arts-and-crafts.

I'd be surprised and impressed if MG help desks teach horticultural principles so abstract that they could be proven by controlled experiments. Aren't the questions usually "what should I do?", and seldom couched in terms like "hydrostatic pressure" or "population ratios" or Milli-seiverts per square meter (if that really is a valid unit).

Farming may be more cut-and-dried, since the goal can usually be boiled down to profitability, and other goals are often ignored.

"Practice" is different from "principles" by a gap as large as the number of uncontrolled or unknown variables in a garden, including the gardeners.

Even in controlled experimentation, , scientific research literature is mostly contradictions and unresolved questions until a field matures enough that it moves to other issues ... and then those "agreed-upon, proven principles" only stand until a new technology comes along that lets scientists take a closer look.

For example, when they got DNA sequencing tests, almost everything that taxonomists had "proven" about bacteria was shown to be wrong, and even many higher plants were thrown into confusion when centuries of "knowing THE right answer" were proven wrong.

Science should not be turned into dogma by organizations motivated to appear as all-knowing or Masterful. Maybe programs like extension services and MG advice desks NEED to give simple answers that are consistent.

The fact that I would not be comfortable in that setting is not a condemnation that anyone but me should care much about.

Are we cool, or at least agree on what we disagree about?

We are certainly "cool", Rick. I am fortunate to live in the town that hosts MSU, and being a university originally based on agriculture and military (we used to be Mississippi A & M, a sister school of Texas A & M). We were A & M from around 1890 until the early 1930's. We became Mississippi State University many decades ago. The Master Gardener program, at least the one here, and I don't have a clue what other's teach, basically skims lots of subjects That's just enough to give someone the basic information so that he/she has a grasp of many horticultural subjects. Forty hours of class-room lectures hardly scratches the subject of horticulture. But people like me, who just needed a place to start (I am too old to go back to college :whistling:), will find the coarse adequate enough to give them a toe-hold and a source of direction. Unfortunately, for me at least, the MG program barely touched on tropical plants, and that's basically what I grow.

Oddly enough, after getting certified as a MG, I was asked if I would consider teaching a session on tropical plants, specifically orchids. I declined. I neither have the time nor really the formal education to do that. Much of what I do is as much trial-and-error as knowledgeable experience. I learn as much from my mistakes (lot's of them ) as my successes.

So things are good between us. Take care. Keep on plugging away.

Poohdaddy wrote: "Oh and those of you close around, Walker Co MG is putting on an all day event Oct 16. Pollinators - a Gardening Symposium. Felder Rushing will be our keynote speaker, we will also have Henry Flowers (herbs), Chris Moore (state beekeepers) and Dotty Woodson (water conservation). And on the 17th we will have our annual Butterly Festival and do a tag and release of Monarch butterflies. (We are a Monarch whaystation) Save the Date!!"

So, Duane, those events are open to the general public ? I'm going to have to find out what's going on in Michigan, and hopefully there will be something here in the upper peninsula because the rest of the state is pretty far away... I think that might be a good way to kind of get a feel for the MG program here. (oh -- and I'm pretty sure you wife realizes that there are a lot worse things you could do in your spare time than belong to an herb society... )

Rick - very true about all the conflicting information out there on just about every subject... I would suggest that if you're researching some topic on gardening/agriculture and can't decide who to believe, always go with the info from Michigan State University, I'm pretty sure my MSU has the right answers
(honest, Ken -- just kidding!!)

Sandi -- I can only imagine what kind of calls might come in from the "general public" I think that answering those calls would take a great deal more patience than I would ever have

I am sure Ken would agree that MSU has the right answers!

Even my MSU does not always have the right answers. I am trying to educate those PhD's on growing tropical plants, at least the ones I grow.

I'm glad we're OK.

>> Oddly enough, after getting certified as a MG, I was asked if I would consider teaching a session on tropical plants, specifically orchids. I declined.

Once again Tolkien (and a popular cliche) have the right phrase:
"Those who know the most, say the least."

When I ask a question, if the answerer starts by telling me he knows ALL about it, and any contrary opinions are just plain WRONG, I presume he's a clueless dolt and take his answer with a double handful of salt. (They aren't all clueless, some are just arrogant and no wronger than the average amateur in the street. But they think there is only ONE true answer and THEY know what it is ... I think that's too simple for most questions that are interesting enough to be worth asking.)

If he says "I barely know enough to point out SOME of the relevant issues ..." I figure that he's either an expert or a scholar or wise enough to understand that there ARE complexities and that perspective and context affect the question, let alone the answer. I get out a notebook and several sharp pencils so I can take detailed notes about the wisdom he's about to share. They ALWAYS know more about the subject than "Dr. Dolt" who's sure he knows it ALL and stopped listening years ago. (I'm not bashing PhDs or MDs, just arrogant people.)

If they say "I have some opinions, and here is what I do and why", I take just as careful notes, so I can take advantage of their experience and good sense.

This is a bias and a prejudice on my part, but it has been supported by almost every experience I've had, from one Nobel Laureate and many good professors, to dozens of self-proclaimed know-it-alls (some without but some with academic training in the subject).

I don't know the most, Rick.