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Aug 6, 2015 10:44 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: Ann ~Heat zn 9, Sunset
North Fl. (Zone 8b)
Garden Sages Region: Ukraine Native Plants and Wildflowers Xeriscape Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Master Level Butterflies Charter ATP Member Plant Identifier Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Dog Lover
No, I had already checked Hawkweed in previous days. Hawkweed is a basal rosette - my plant is not. My leaves are alternate & we must not forget the milky sap.
Thanks girls.
I am a strong believer in the simple fact is that what matters in this life is how we treat others. I think that's what living is all about. Not what I've done in my life but how I've treated others. ~~ Sharon Brown
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Aug 6, 2015 10:59 AM CST
Name: Donald
Eastland county, Texas (Zone 8a)
Raises cows Enjoys or suffers hot summers Region: Texas Plant Identifier
According this website http://www.discoverlife.org/mp..., Hieracium gronovii does have milky sap:

"Other info. - This plant is distinctive and tough to miss in the wild. The scabrous leaves and long inflorescence make it easy to ID. The amount and type of pubescence can vary greatly from plant to plant and the plants I have found in New England and North Carolina were much less pubescent than those I've found here in Missouri. This species produces a fair portion of milky sap if injured."
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Aug 6, 2015 11:15 AM CST
Name: Lin Vosbury
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)

Region: Ukraine Region: United States of America Bird Bath, Fountain and Waterfall Region: Florida Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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H. gronovii: This says leaves mostly on the stems rather than basal rosette, leaves alternate
http://www.wildflphoto.com/spe...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

H. scabrum: This says leaves mostly on the stem:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
http://www.illinoiswildflowers...
http://michiganflora.net/image...
~ I'm an old gal who still loves playing in the dirt!
~ Playing in the dirt is my therapy ... and I'm in therapy a lot!


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Aug 6, 2015 11:24 AM CST
Name: Christine
North East Texas (Zone 7b)
Shine Your Light!
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Yes, Ann, you might want to relook at Hieracium gronovii, it does have a milky sap. And the leaves do not appear to have the typical rosette.

http://vaplantatlas.org/index....
http://www.florafinder.com/Spe...
May your life be like a wildflower, growing freely in the beauty and joy of each day --Native American Proverb

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Aug 6, 2015 12:35 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Ann ~Heat zn 9, Sunset
North Fl. (Zone 8b)
Garden Sages Region: Ukraine Native Plants and Wildflowers Xeriscape Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Master Level Butterflies Charter ATP Member Plant Identifier Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Dog Lover
Well I stand corrected. You guys are right! It IS Hieracium gronovii. I've found more references for it besides the ones you guys so kindly linked which were invaluable btw. So I am sure now this is what it is. Thank you ALL so much!!! Thank You! Thank You! Thank You! I tip my hat to you.

Funny thing is I had this tab open since early this morning & kept going back & looking at it but it only has (mostly) a basal rosette & that kept throwing me but I kept the tab open so I would remember to go back & research it further.
http://florida.plantatlas.usf....
Instead you guys did the work for me. Smiling

OK, I will put it in the db this evening then. I want to get a great photo of the bloom too but that may have to wait as the ones in partial shade have not yet bloomed & the ones I dug up & potted, of course have wilted racemes right now. I'm sure they will bounce back soon.

Marking this one SOLVED! Whew! That was quite a trip. Sticking tongue out
I am a strong believer in the simple fact is that what matters in this life is how we treat others. I think that's what living is all about. Not what I've done in my life but how I've treated others. ~~ Sharon Brown
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Aug 6, 2015 12:44 PM CST
Name: Jennifer
48036 MI (Zone 6b)
Cottage Gardener Houseplants Spiders! Heucheras Frogs and Toads Dahlias
Hummingbirder Sedums Winter Sowing Peonies Region: Michigan Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Ahhhhhhh! Finally! This all got way to technical for me but I could not wait to find out what it was!
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Aug 6, 2015 1:12 PM CST
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Bee Lover Plant Identifier Organic Gardener Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Charter ATP Member
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Are you sure it's Hieracium gronovii? The leaves as shown on missouriplants show elongated, narrow bases which this plant doesn't have.

Leaves - mostly basal but one or two on very lowest portion of erect stem


http://www.missouriplants.com/...

https://gobotany.newenglandwil...
Last edited by JRsbugs Aug 6, 2015 1:18 PM Icon for preview
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Aug 6, 2015 6:40 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Ann ~Heat zn 9, Sunset
North Fl. (Zone 8b)
Garden Sages Region: Ukraine Native Plants and Wildflowers Xeriscape Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Master Level Butterflies Charter ATP Member Plant Identifier Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Dog Lover
And this photo from the very same missouriplants via http://www.tropicos.org/Image/... albeit a younger plant than mine or perhaps they grow more robust in FL. I would also imagine growing conditions have a large effect on appearance too. We have had copious amounts of rain here this summer especially during July when it rained every single day or nearly so to the tune of an inch, 2 inches, 2.5 inches many of those days. Just yesterday we had 1/2". Furthermore, we do not know when those photos were taken. Was it spring, or early summer or late summer? We have a very long growing season here - certainly longer than MO.
and again --- http://www.tropicos.org/Image/...
and again --- http://www.tropicos.org/Image/...
All these photos defy their description of: Leaves - mostly basal but one or two on very lowest portion of erect stem.

This matches my plants:
http://www.efloras.org/florata...

And:
"IDENTIFICATION: Hawkweeds typically consist of a basal rosette of leaves, with long stems that are sometimes bare or sometimes contain alternate leaves. Leaves vary a lot in shape. Stems and leaves are usually hairy, sometimes very hairy. When cut or broken, hawkweed stems, leaves, and stolons produce a bitter milky sap. Hawkweeds form patches or colonies, spreading by stolons (above-ground roots) or by seed. Flowers usually occur in clusters and are composed of ray flowers that have squared-off tips and several serrations at the end of each ray. Most are yellow; one species is orange. Flowers are replaced by pappi, round balls containing seeds like those of dandelions; sometimes the pappi are shaped more like an old-style shaving brush. Each seed has its own parachute for wind dispersal."
Key points here are:
long stems that are sometimes bare or sometimes contain alternate leaves. Leaves vary a lot in shape.
From: http://www.florafinder.com/Spe...
Then if you scroll down to the chart there you can see comparisons and my plants fit the Gronovius’ Hawkweed.

and this photo showing numerous leaves along the stem
http://www.florafinder.com/Lar...
I am a strong believer in the simple fact is that what matters in this life is how we treat others. I think that's what living is all about. Not what I've done in my life but how I've treated others. ~~ Sharon Brown
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Aug 6, 2015 7:29 PM CST
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Bee Lover Plant Identifier Organic Gardener Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Charter ATP Member
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I can see how it can fit Hieracium gronovii to a point, but I personally would reserve judgement.

By clicking on the photo on florafinder, it gives more photos which can be enlarged by clicking on them (I see you did that).

http://www.florafinder.com/Spe...

Variations apart, the leaves don't in my opinion match sufficiently any of the photos you linked to. Note the almost triangular shape of the upper leaves on your plant.

Thumb of 2015-08-07/JRsbugs/11e6df

Compare with this plant from florafinder .. in particular note the bottom leaves which appear to mostly be spatulate.

https://sites.google.com/site/...

Thumb of 2015-08-07/JRsbugs/8bd49b
Last edited by JRsbugs Aug 6, 2015 7:34 PM Icon for preview
Avatar for Frillylily
Aug 6, 2015 9:18 PM CST
Missouri (Zone 6a)
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Identifier
Youngia japonica, Asteraceae, oriental hawksbeard. Slender, weedy annual herb from southeastern Asia with milky sap; leaves clustered mostly to the base of the plant. The flowering heads are tiny, yellow. Location: Very common weed in waste areas.
Avatar for Frillylily
Aug 6, 2015 9:20 PM CST
Missouri (Zone 6a)
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Identifier
well the bloom looks right and it has milky sap but the leaves don't seem right, haven't found a reliable pic of the leaves.
Avatar for Frillylily
Aug 6, 2015 9:24 PM CST
Missouri (Zone 6a)
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Identifier
http://www.msuturfweeds.net/de...

similar also, milky sap, hairy, and yellow flower.

spreads by runners.
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Aug 7, 2015 4:48 AM CST
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Bee Lover Plant Identifier Organic Gardener Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Charter ATP Member
Cat Lover Garden Photography Butterflies Birds Spiders!
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Aug 7, 2015 7:38 AM CST
Name: Lin Vosbury
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)

Region: Ukraine Region: United States of America Bird Bath, Fountain and Waterfall Region: Florida Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Birds Butterflies Bee Lover Hummingbirder Container Gardener
I agree, definitely not Asiatic False Hawksbeard (Youngia japonica) which has different leaf shape and growth habit.

Hieracium caespitosum (syn. pratense) Yellow Hawkweed is apparently found in parts of the southern U.S. http://www.nwcb.wa.gov/detail.... but I'm not sure the description fits.
~ I'm an old gal who still loves playing in the dirt!
~ Playing in the dirt is my therapy ... and I'm in therapy a lot!


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Aug 7, 2015 7:57 AM CST
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Bee Lover Plant Identifier Organic Gardener Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Charter ATP Member
Cat Lover Garden Photography Butterflies Birds Spiders!
Which part of North Florida are you in Ann?

Sometimes it's easier to find a plant given for a certain location.
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Aug 7, 2015 8:16 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: Ann ~Heat zn 9, Sunset
North Fl. (Zone 8b)
Garden Sages Region: Ukraine Native Plants and Wildflowers Xeriscape Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Master Level Butterflies Charter ATP Member Plant Identifier Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Dog Lover
Lake City FL, Columbia County - 35 miles south of the Georgia state line so south GA plants are applicable.

I'm pretty busy with regular life today so probably won't get to doing much if anything on this today or tonight.
I am a strong believer in the simple fact is that what matters in this life is how we treat others. I think that's what living is all about. Not what I've done in my life but how I've treated others. ~~ Sharon Brown
Avatar for Frillylily
Aug 7, 2015 8:34 AM CST
Missouri (Zone 6a)
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Identifier
plantladylin said:I agree, definitely not Asiatic False Hawksbeard (Youngia japonica) which has different leaf shape and growth habit.

Hieracium caespitosum (syn. pratense) Yellow Hawkweed is apparently found in parts of the southern U.S. http://www.nwcb.wa.gov/detail.... but I'm not sure the description fits.


everything in the description fits, except the leaves are too narrow, and don't look right.
I would think milky sap, hairy leaves and small yellow flowers would ID this pretty quickly, crazy. Sticking tongue out
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Aug 7, 2015 12:21 PM CST
Name: Christine
North East Texas (Zone 7b)
Shine Your Light!
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It's not uncommon for the upper leaves to thin out, is it?

I've seen it occur often with wildflowers, the leaves will change shape or thin out as they reach the top of the plant.
This photo of Hieracium gronovii seems to show the same triangular leaf at the top.
http://www.noble.org/AppFiles/...

The leaf itself is an exact match when compared to this drawing found in the public domain.

Thumb of 2015-08-07/wildflowers/23aff4 Thumb of 2015-08-07/wildflowers/99dc48

This photo from Florafinder http://www.florafinder.com/Spe... also looks like a match

Thumb of 2015-08-07/wildflowers/74407f

When compared to Ann's

Thumb of 2015-08-07/wildflowers/f8f991
May your life be like a wildflower, growing freely in the beauty and joy of each day --Native American Proverb

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Aug 8, 2015 8:16 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Ann ~Heat zn 9, Sunset
North Fl. (Zone 8b)
Garden Sages Region: Ukraine Native Plants and Wildflowers Xeriscape Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Master Level Butterflies Charter ATP Member Plant Identifier Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Dog Lover
First off this description fits:

FNA | Family List | FNA Vol. 19, 20 and 21 | Asteraceae | Hieracium
9. Hieracium gronovii Linnaeus, Sp. Pl. 2: 802. 1753.
Plants 30–45(–80) cm. Stems proximally piloso-hirsute (hairs 2–4+ mm), sometimes stellate-pubescent as well, distally stellate-pubescent, sometimes piloso-hirsute as well. Leaves: basal 0(–2+), cauline (3–)6–12+; blades elliptic or obovate to oblanceolate, 20–35(–90) × 10–40(–50) mm, lengths 2–4+ times widths, bases cuneate to rounded (sometimes ± clasping), margins entire, apices rounded to acute, abaxial faces piloso-hirsute (hairs 2–4 mm) and stellate-pubescent, adaxial piloso-hirsute. Heads (5–)25–50 in usually narrow, thyrsiform arrays (lengths of arrays usually 3–6+ times diams., sometimes shorter). Peduncles stellate-pubescent and stipitate-glandular. Calyculi: bractlets 8–12+. Involucres cylindric to campanulate, 7–10 mm. Phyllaries 12–15+, apices rounded to acute or acuminate, abaxial faces glabrous or stellate-pubescent, rarely stipitate-glandular as well. Florets 12–20+; corollas yellow, 8–9+ mm. Cypselae urceolate, 3.5–4.5+ mm; pappi of ca. 40+, stramineous bristles in 2+ series, ca. 5 mm.
Flowering (Mar–)Jul–Sep(–Oct). Openings in pine and pine-oak woods, bogs, sands; 30–600 m; Ont.; Ala., Ark., Conn., Del., D.C., Fla., Ga., Ill., Ind., Kans., Ky., La., Maine, Md., Mass., Mich., Minn., Miss., Mo., N.J., N.Y., N.C., Ohio, Okla., Pa., R.I., S.C., Tenn., Tex., Va., W.Va.; Mexico, Central America.
Source: http://www.efloras.org/florata...
I dissected that botanical speak bit by bit.
If you read this:
Most plants referable to Hieracium are apomictic (reproducing from asexually produced seeds). Apomictic reproduction often results in perpetuation of morphologic variants at populational and regional levels. Temptation to name such variants as species has proven irresistible to some botanists; upward of 9,000 species names have been published in Hieracium. Circumscriptions of "species" in Hieracium seem to be more artificial than in most genera of composites. Under these circumstances, I feel it would be irresponsible to recognize any infraspecific taxa here. For the most part, the "species" recognized here are those that have been recognized in local and regional floras of the past 50 or so years. Accepted names and/or changes in synomymies for some species reflect changes suggested by J. H. Beaman (1990), A. Cronquist (1980), and E. G. Voss (1972–1996, vol. 3). I have maintained a traditional generic circumscription of Hieracium. Some other botanists exclude some species (including numbers 1–6 here) from Hieracium and treat them in Pilosella Hill, which differs from Hieracium in having stolons often produced, ribs of cypselae slightly projecting distally, and bristles of the pappi in one series. For Greenland, T. W. Böcher et al. (1968) reported 18 species of Hieracium: 16 said to be endemic to Greenland plus H. alpinum Linnaeus (known from Greenland and Eurasia) and H. groenlandicum Arvet-Touvet (= H. vulgatum Fries; known from Greenland and continental North America). Following H. J. Scoggan (1978–1979, part 4), I have placed 15 names of Greenland "endemics" as synonyms of other names. The type of the 16th "endemic," H. trigonophorum Oskarsson, is probably conspecific with that of H. alpinum. In my key and descriptions, "piloso-hirsute" refers to surfaces with scattered to crowded, tapered, whiplike, straight or curly, smooth to ± barbellate hairs mostly (0.5–)2–8(–15+) mm (sometimes called "setae"); "stellate-pubescent" refers to surfaces with scattered to crowded, ± dendritically branched (often called, but seldom truly, "stellate") hairs mostly 0.05–0.2+ mm (such surfaces are sometimes described as "floccose"); and "stipitate-glandular" refers to surfaces with scattered to crowded gland-tipped hairs mostly 0.2–0.8(–1.2+) mm. Surfaces of stems, leaves, peduncles, and phyllaries may be glabrous or may bear one, two, or all three of the types of hairs mentioned here; other induments are seldom encountered in hieraciums of the flora area. Given the complexity of the reproductive modes among the plants and the likelihood of misidentifications of vouchers, I have not included chromosome numbers for species. Sexual hieraciums are usually diploids (2n = 18) and the apomictic hieraciums are usually triploids (2n = 27).
Source:
http://www.efloras.org/florata...
The author explains his meaning, reasoning & definitions. This is the main page of Hieracium in eflora. Scroll down until you reach the blue portion where we get into the members of Hieracium. I went through each & every one of those to rule them out as possibilities..... or not. Firstly I threw out any that did not occur anywhere near the state of FL. For all of my research in this I checked numerous reliable resources & did not rely on someone's garden blog or some other questionable source of information. When I found members that occurred in Florida OR the neighboring states of GA & AL then I still considered it as a possibility here.
I will list the candidates and give a few reasons why it is ruled out as a possibility. I will not list the ones that do not occur anywhere near FL.
H. pilosella - mouse ear hawkweed ~~~ single inflorescences. NOT a candidate.
H. aurantica - orange hawkweed ~~~ basal rosette, each stem 1 or a dense cluster of flower heads NOT a candidate.
H. caespitosum - field hawkweed ~~~ does not occur in FL but does in GA so I considered it. Basal rosette, flat topped cluster of blooms, blooms too large to fit my plants NOT a candidate.
H. piloselloides - King Devil hawkweed ~~~ does not occur in FL but does in GA so I considered it. Flat headed panicle of blooms, buds completely wrong for my plants. NOT a candidate.
H. megacephalon - coastal plain hawkweed ~~~ Flat topped bloom array. NOT a candidate.
H. paniculatum - does not occur in FL but does in Ga so it was considered. Leaves all wrong, blooms incorrect to fit my plant. NOT a candidate.
H. scabrum - rough hawkweed ~~~ not a fit at all. NOT a candidate.

I am confident this is H. gronovii.

I am going to leave this thread open/unsolved for approximately 24 hours. I welcome your comments or arguments. I am willing to consider other suggestions. Otherwise, tomorrow night it goes to Kent for approval to the database as H. gronovii.
I am a strong believer in the simple fact is that what matters in this life is how we treat others. I think that's what living is all about. Not what I've done in my life but how I've treated others. ~~ Sharon Brown
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Aug 9, 2015 6:26 AM CST
Name: Catmint/Robin
PNW WA half hour south of Olym (Zone 8a)
Region: Pacific Northwest Region: Mid-Atlantic Region: Maryland Butterflies Bee Lover Native Plants and Wildflowers
Echinacea Azaleas Forum moderator Cottage Gardener Garden Ideas: Master Level Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Hieracium gronovii--apparently also known as 'Queendevil'. Big Grin
It does seem like you've found it! Thumbs up
"One of the pleasures of being a gardener comes from the enjoyment you get looking at other people's yards”
― Thalassa Cruso

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