Oh wow, you guys have been busy in my absence today! I have to catch up on everything that's being said...

RickCorey said:Hurray for Jay and DogsNDaylilies!


I like the idea of adding optional Wish Lists. We all have many more seeds than we feel like typing into a swap list. Half the pleasure of a trade is giving someone something they REALLY want.
A Wish List lets the person who wants something "pull" it out of obscurity in someone else's seed stash.


>> Could we ask that packets be dated according to year harvested in a garden or year the commercial vendor packet it for?

I would suggest REQUESTING some basic info on each seed label, but many people would rather not write much. I find it helps to have access to a laser printer for fine print! (My handwriting STINKS.)


I would request six to eight things, but expect to get 2-3 things.

common name of seed + cultivar variety if you know it + Latin name if you know it
bloom color
year harvested or year on commercial seed pkt (which means less each year from some seed vendors)
commercial or harvested or received in trade .
Isolated or not, from cross-pollination.
cultivation and germination notes if you like that.
from whom (this lets them still know who it came from years later, even after re-trading.)

About cross-pollination, you can just say "ex Plant Name" meaning you collected FROM that plant, but the pollen came from wherever it came from. That works great for lettuce and tomatoes, less so for Brassicas.

I agree about the Wish List. I don't see why we couldn't incorporate one into everything. It's part of what I'm currently working on, but I'm really glad you brought it up again because that helps me know others feel its important, too!

As for seed dates, I have already submitted that idea to Dave for the programming end of things, taking into account both seeds that were garden-harvests and seeds that were professionally-packaged.

As for your list of 6-8 things you are looking for...I've proposed an idea to Dave that will simplify that aspect of things GREATLY.

As for hybridized seeds, I got ya covered there, too. I have a proposed idea in to Dave for that as well.

Hopefully, all of this will be VERY simple for the user. That's my goal.

THANK YOU, though, for the ideas. Please keep them coming! Just because I've already tackled those ideas doesn't mean that I haven't tackled others, so please feel free to keep submitting your thoughts!

>> I don't see any major obstacles for the warehouse other than getting participants to follow the guidelines and shipping in a timely manner.

>> I don't see any major obstacles for the warehouse other than getting participants to follow the guidelines and shipping in a timely manner.

Overthinking is my middle name! But he who does the work gets to make the rules. And I agree with you that we don't need a 500-page operations manual. The fewer rules that are set up, the less inconvenient it will be when some fail to notice or comply with them. Having a fallback rule is great: "You have to do X, but if you don;t, Y will happen". Then there's no hassle.

Even the international phytosanitary certificates have been successfully ignored by many seed swaps, including one hosted in Canada (Heather's Tomato and Pepper Swap) , and one that shipped to several European countries (Ella's Hog Wild Piggy Swap). I don't dispute Caroline - they apparently are required by law, but I have yet to lose a packet sent to another country, or failed to receive one I expected.

If anyone in another country really wants to get in on the USA swap, maybe this would be a work-around:
- The person outside the USA could find a volunteer local proxy inside the US.
- Participate in the online bidding and offering.
- Send seeds to the Volunteer Local Proxy and hope they aren't confiscated.
- The VLP mails those seeds to Jay along with the Proxy's offered seeds. (No extra postage if they fit).
- Jay mails back to the VLP the VLP's seeds and also the seeds requested by the distant trader.
- (Still no extra postage if it all fits in one flat rate box.)
- The VLP tries to mail the seeds back overseas.

I suggest this because the phyto certificate itself adds no safety or cleanliness. We would be mailing the same seeds around anyway, regardless of whether or not someone makes the effort to do the paperwork.

Hopefully the seed-pkt-info rules will allow extra text. I usually fill my labels with as much as will fit in 10-point type, if I can find that much to say. The most recent change I wanted to make was that I wished I had put my screen name on every seed pkt.

For years while labeling seeds, I thought that putting my name on them was like unwarranted boasting, unless I had harvested them myself. Then, while trying to organize seeds I received from Ella's swap, I realized that I REALLY WISHED everyone had put THEIR names on the seeds I received!

So my new plan is to include my name on each trade packet. If I thought I knew enough about gardening to make it worth asking me questions, I would put an email address there also.

One of my favorite trades was some seed that I got from gardener #2, labelled as having originally come from gardener #1's garden. I was gardener #3, and passed some along to gardener #4. Four "generations" of history!

RickCorey said:I will certainly participate as a member, but not as the central person. If there are ways I can help, I would love to help.

>> Each person was responsible for editing their post to add the names of people who wanted their seeds.

Unless Dave thinks of some interactive feature, that sounds like a good plan. The person holding the seeds makes the final decision to send someone a packet, so that person is the logical one to add the info "I agree to send 20 ABC seeds to Person 3".

It seems desirable that each participant should do as much of the work of documenting what was agreed to, as possible. The format they should record these in, should probably be designed to make life easier for the central person.

It might be great if the people trading could do all the discussing and agreeing and documenting and sorting ... then the central person could just transfer bundles of seeds from the "FROM" mailers into the "TO" mailers without taking responsibility for checking the consistency of various documents and the contents of what came in.

No worries about not being the central person. The more I invest my time into this, the more acclimated to the idea of being the central person I'm getting to be. I really want to see how all of this goes the first year, especially since I've sort of made this my pet project for the moment, so there is no pressure to find a central person at the moment. I highly doubt I'll want to do it every year though, so I'm sure I'll be looking for volunteers in the future. If you're ever feeling up for it, just speak up, but there is no pressure. I'm sure we'll always find a volunteer.

I think making people responsible for editing their post for who they are trading with is a good idea, but if we get the number of people participating that I suspect we will, it might be easier to have a system that is slightly more automated and streamlined. That's the part I'm in the works on right now. (I'm trying not to put too much on Dave, not to mention I have lots of ideas on how this will all work, so I'm working on the logistics...that way Dave only has to worry about the programming end of things.)

said:It might be great if the people trading could do all the discussing and agreeing and documenting and sorting ... then the central person could just transfer bundles of seeds from the "FROM" mailers into the "TO" mailers without taking responsibility for checking the consistency of various documents and the contents of what came in.

At the very least, all of the discussing, agreeing, and documentation will be done by the traders. Individual seed sorting (separating seeds into the baggies, etc.) will be done by the traders as well. There is no point having the traders send in all of the envelopes though or there will be an overabundance of envelopes in the end, so the trick is figuring out how the central person won't have to pay for a bunch of envelopes/mailers. Any ideas? Tentatively, I'm thinking that if everyone sends along $5 with their order, that will cover the cost of shipping back to them for their order (usually about $3), plus a little money for the envelope that the central person will need to purchase, plus a little 'tip' to the central person for handling the orders.

************************How does everyone else feel about that???****************************

WOW, @dave! That will be a lot of fun in my case!

Danita said:Like Alana, I've been participating in group trades/swaps just like this for at least a decade and they can be a lot of fun. Since there is already a lot of experience in this type of trade, a lot of the issues/obstacles are already known. I've never hosted one myself, though. If we could find someone who has hosted several swaps, they would be a good source of info. If we can't, however, I think there are enough people on ATP that have participated in group seed swaps that we could cobble together a lot of the information between us.

I think having an ATP seed swap would be a great idea and might attract new members. Gardenweb members hosted a lot of group trades until recently when Houzz took over. Most of the good traders have left and now most posts are just people trying to sponge free seeds off of good-hearted people. If we could attract more of those fabulous traders/gardeners, that would be wonderful. (Thankfully, some of those lovely people are already ATP members. )

I've had a rubbish year as far as gardening and seed collecting so I'm not sure if I'll participate yet but I can try to help with some info, at least.

Here's a start of some info that might be helpful:

The host needs to be a known, trustworthy person. You don't want a scammer who will keep all the seeds and postage money for themselves.

Seeds need to be mailed in a bubble envelope or a box. Bubble wrap in a regular envelope doesn't work. The seeds and bubble wrap just get crushed in the machines.

Require delivery confirmation on the packages going both ways. That way you have a way to confirm if someone really mailed their package or not and might have a better chance of finding a lost package.

USPS will send you free flat-rate Priority boxes or padded envelopes mailed directly to your house. They usually cost around $6 to mail but include a free box/envelope, tracking/delivery confirmation, and faster delivery. It may end up costing a dollar or two more than sending First Class (postage, cost of envelope, delivery confirmation) for small packages but can be the same or cheaper for larger/heavier packages. It is also easier, especially on the host who is juggling many packages. It can also help with finding lost packages. One year an entire mail bag of Piggy Swap seeds got lost in the postal system. Because the host had all of the Priority tracking numbers and kept calling the post office daily, they were able to track the bag down and get the packages delivered.
https://store.usps.com/store/b...

Participants need to bag up and label each trade of seeds individually before they send it to the host. It would be cruel to expect someone to divide up and label a thousand packs of seeds. (yes, it can be thousands in a good trade!)

If participants are sending more than one pack of seeds to another participant, they need to have a larger baggie or envelope and gather all of the seeds going to that person in one baggie/envelope and label it: who it's going to, who it's from, and how many packs. (If only sending one pack you can still do this or put the same info on the individual pack.)

Such as:

To: Dave
Total Packs = 12
(from Danita)

I typed this up for another trade but though it might be helpful here...

Pack Up Your Individual Packs of Seed

Use small plastic baggies, paper envelopes, etc. but be sure that whatever you use is secure and doesn't allow seeds to wriggle out of small cracks. (The little craft/bead baggies that they sell at Walmart or on Amazon are easy & cheap. )

Some general labeling notes:
Sharpie marker on plastic bags rubs off and smudges. By the time people receive the seed, they may no longer be able to read it.
Be sure labels are inside baggies or securely attached.

Label each individual Seed Packet with :

1) Plant's Name (both scientific & common is preferred, if known. Scientific is better than common.)
2) Year the seed was collected or purchased if it's commercial
3) Source - commercial or garden collected
4) Including your "username" is preferred

Example:
________

Salvia coccinea 'Coral Nymph'
Texas Sage
2014 commercial
(from Danita)
________

Feel free to include sowing directions or any other useful information, but it's not required.

___________________________

I have to do some other stuff now, but can add more info later. Hopefully, other group trade veterans can help with info & experiences, too.

Edit: I see I've cross-posted with Rick so already have some veteran info & experience! I'll have to read what he wrote and see if he got everything right or not. (just joking)

Wow, you had a LOT of great things to say. I'll try to address most of them.

I think your idea about delivery confirmation is a GREAT one, and one I hadn't thought about yet. Assuming I am the organizer this year--although your comment about someone that everyone knows and trusts leaves me wondering if that includes me or not --I will definitely do that. I know that having a tracking number was really comforting to me when I purchased seeds off of the LA, I think that should be included in this, too. That also plays into your comment about how some people don't care about a tit-for-tat system as long as they get something good in return...but that some people abuse the system and try to freeload off of everyone else's generosity. I would like to keep this as a bunch of trade agreements between people so that no one ends up feeling like they got the short end of the stick. If someone wants to donate free seeds to the cause, that's great! Maybe we could include a feature that allows for someone to either "donate to anyone" or allows for a trade between two people where one person trades something for "nothing" with the other person. Thoughts???

Thank you for the helpful packaging information! I learned the hard way, myself, that Sharpie marker rubs off. I'm really glad that you posted all of that information for people--can I use what you wrote in the FAQs I'm creating?

DogsNDaylilies said: At the very least, all of the discussing, agreeing, and documentation will be done by the traders. Individual seed sorting (separating seeds into the baggies, etc.) will be done by the traders as well. There is no point having the traders send in all of the envelopes though or there will be an overabundance of envelopes in the end, so the trick is figuring out how the central person won't have to pay for a bunch of envelopes/mailers. Any ideas? Tentatively, I'm thinking that if everyone sends along $5 with their order, that will cover the cost of shipping back to them for their order (usually about $3), plus a little money for the envelope that the central person will need to purchase, plus a little 'tip' to the central person for handling the orders.

************************How does everyone else feel about that???****************************

I don't know exactly what USPS rates are but I don't think three buck would cover the return. I payed over $2 for a padded envelope with only two pack of seeds and we talking about a hundred or more packs going back to the traders. It is going to take a box. The best way would be to send $6 to the central person along with your seeds. The small flat rate box for Priority Mail is $5.95 which comes with free tracking and the Post Office will provide the boxes for free.

RickCorey said:
But probably people will hear about it while it's running, want to join, then only have time to list very few items before the swap-time is over. Why not allow the search-and-trade time to go for a month or two?

That's a great point that I hadn't considered! Hmm... How will people feel about waiting months for their seeds, though? I know when I decide on and purchase something online, waiting even a week or two is painstaking! You did mention that for the first one or two, we could do a shorter time frame and then, for future years allow a longer period...that might work. Can you (or anyone else!) think of a way of a way that would cater to everyone's enthusiasm to get their seeds in a timely manner, but also allow newbies to participate? I'm all ears! If not, I'll see if I can come up with something. It is a really good point and I'd love to include newcomers. (Anyone who is an existing member should know about it because I'm hoping that there will be an article on the home page and/or a TreeMail with a notice to all members about it.)

RickCorey said:
Or, once the databases are set up, allow them to stay up indefinitely, and allow requests, new offers and trades to be added and saved over a period of months.

As for time to edit the lists...I think people will have a minimum of two months to put their lists together (privately, I think) before making their lists public. (Lists will probably still be edit-able even after they are made public. I don't see any reason why they shouldn't be.)

RickCorey said:
Then, go through the central work of send-em-all-in and mail-em-all-back-out 2 or 3 times per year. That way, the word of mouth will spread and people can join up over a long period of time.

Say you set the main deadline for January 15 to please winter-sowers and early Southern sowers. Maybe announce that one is "focused on" flowers or perennials but allows veggies. That has to be late enough for seed-savers to have harvested, dried well, divided and labeled. You don't know how many packets to promise until after you've cleaned and divided the harvest.

Why not set another date in late February or March, focused on veggies but allowing flowers?

I suppose that should depend on how much interest was expressed - or how many new trades have been agreed to since Jan 15.

That's an interesting idea. What are everyone else's thoughts on this? Sound good? Or is it too much?

RickCorey said:
Overthinking is my middle name! But he who does the work gets to make the rules. And I agree with you that we don't need a 500-page operations manual. The fewer rules that are set up, the less inconvenient it will be when some fail to notice or comply with them. Having a fallback rule is great: "You have to do X, but if you don;t, Y will happen". Then there's no hassle.

Ahh, a person after my own heart. I couldn't agree more. I've been accused many times of over-thinking things, but it usually turns out to be a good thing. I'm a planner. You're a planner. We planning people are gonna make this a heckuvanawesome seed swap, hehe

RickCorey said:
Even the international phytosanitary certificates have been successfully ignored by many seed swaps, including one hosted in Canada (Heather's Tomato and Pepper Swap) , and one that shipped to several European countries (Ella's Hog Wild Piggy Swap). I don't dispute Caroline - they apparently are required by law, but I have yet to lose a packet sent to another country, or failed to receive one I expected.

If anyone in another country really wants to get in on the USA swap, maybe this would be a work-around:
- The person outside the USA could find a volunteer local proxy inside the US.
- Participate in the online bidding and offering.
- Send seeds to the Volunteer Local Proxy and hope they aren't confiscated.
- The VLP mails those seeds to Jay along with the Proxy's offered seeds. (No extra postage if they fit).
- Jay mails back to the VLP the VLP's seeds and also the seeds requested by the distant trader.
- (Still no extra postage if it all fits in one flat rate box.)
- The VLP tries to mail the seeds back overseas.

I suggest this because the phyto certificate itself adds no safety or cleanliness. We would be mailing the same seeds around anyway, regardless of whether or not someone makes the effort to do the paperwork.

Interesting. I don't have any opinions on this one way or the other, so I'm open to everyone sorting this out and giving me the final input.

RickCorey said:Hopefully the seed-pkt-info rules will allow extra text. I usually fill my labels with as much as will fit in 10-point type, if I can find that much to say. The most recent change I wanted to make was that I wished I had put my screen name on every seed pkt.

That's a GREAT idea! Can I quote you on that for the FAQ? (If not, that's okay, I'll just make sure that suggestion gets in there and/or the seed trade instructions.)

RickCorey said:
For years while labeling seeds, I thought that putting my name on them was like unwarranted boasting, unless I had harvested them myself. Then, while trying to organize seeds I received from Ella's swap, I realized that I REALLY WISHED everyone had put THEIR names on the seeds I received!

So my new plan is to include my name on each trade packet. If I thought I knew enough about gardening to make it worth asking me questions, I would put an email address there also.

One of my favorite trades was some seed that I got from gardener #2, labelled as having originally come from gardener #1's garden. I was gardener #3, and passed some along to gardener #4. Four "generations" of history!

Horntoad said:
I don't know exactly what USPS rates are but I don't think three buck would cover the return. I payed over $2 for a padded envelope with only two pack of seeds and we talking about a hundred or more packs going back to the traders. It is going to take a box. The best way would be to send $6 to the central person along with your seeds. The small flat rate box for Priority Mail is $5.95 which comes with free tracking and the Post Office will provide the boxes for free.

I suppose that's a good consideration, although it depends on how many seeds people are planning on receiving. I didn't expect people to be receiving so many, but you're right, we should probably allow for the possibility/liklihood that a lot of seeds will be floating from person to person. My concern, though, is that I don't want the people who are only trading for a few seeds from a few different people to have to pay the larger rate that someone getting many seeds from a dozen different people would have to pay. Thoughts???

Also, while I don't want to determine the tip for myself, I do want to ensure that whomever is the central organizer for future years is 'taken care of' for their time. Unexpected things occur and there may be more work than anticipated for the central person, so I don't want to place that on people and expect them to do it without any sort of recompense for their time. Hmmm.... (Personally, if there was an amaryllis bulb or two in it for me, that might make it worth it, )

Mutisia said:WOW, @dave! That will be a lot of fun in my case!

Are there bans for exporting between certain South American states? I'm sure we have to have other members in neighboring countries, right?

Maybe we need to start a word-of-mouth campaign to get more ATP members from other countries!

DogsNDaylilies said:

I suppose that's a good consideration, although it depends on how many seeds people are planning on receiving. I didn't expect people to be receiving so many, (Personally, if there was an amaryllis bulb or two in it for me, that might make it worth it, )

If you didn't think people would get that many seeds then what is the point of the swap? If someone is going to just get a coulple of packs of seeds then they could just post what they have in the Plant and Seed Trading Forum. I have done this a few time and have always gotten a hundred or more packs.

Go to town, DogsNDs ... quote me or file off the serial numbers and say it yourself. But pleeease ... always to call it "rrrrresearch"! (*)

I think the idea about a local proxy is only worth discussing if someone feels left out of the USA swap, and don't have enough ATP members or drop-ins within their own country to make a central seed swap likely. And then it still doesn't need much discussing - just two people could try it and then it works or it doesn't.

I wouldn't want any non-US ATP members to feel left out or alone. If Jonna offered to participate, i would stand on my head and then swim the Atlantic to help her particiate ... well, maybe not swim the Atlantic.

As for multiple swaps per year ... maybe decide that after the first swap is over.

Once people have invested their time in creating trade lists that are up-to-date, they can each decide whether to leave them publicly visible and open for requests. Then, maybe just wait and see how many people receive requests, and whether anyone volunteers to be the next "central person".

Of course it would stimulate that to say "and there WILL be another mass-mailing next March".

I wouldn't ask people to send a SASE.

Even though I am a cheap, cheap cheap skinflint, the $6 USPS small flat rate box is much easier for anyone without a precise postal scale to determine weight. I would urge that for the "return leg". Then the box is free and the postage is the same for everyone, and hundreds of trades will fit without bursting.

(PayPal has a well-hidden tool for printing labels with discounted postage, cheaper than the post office sells. (**))

Last I checked was a year or so ago, when the cheapest possible rate for a bubble mailer was $2.32 (zero to 3 ounces total weight) - plus the cost of the bubble mailer. Admittedly, $2.50 is much less than $6.

I bought a huge case of 250 #0 bubble mailers, 6"x10" from ULINE for $53 (21 cents each total).
That's more than a lifetime supply, I think.
Sub-Total $39.00 (250 mailers, current price $42)
Shipping $9.69
Sales Tax $4.63
Total $53.32

If the central person wants to hassle with weighing bubble mailers and collecting variable postage, I could ship him or her a few dozen bubble mailers to use.


(*) Tom Lehrer, a song about Nicolay Ivanovitch Lobachevsky (spelling?)

Let no one else's work EVAAADE your eyes, but plagiarize, plagiarize, plagiarize ...
... but always to call it "rrrrreeeeesearch".

(**)
Every time I try to print labels with postage from PayPal, I have to refer to my notes and make them a little more accurate. These come close to a how-to:

1. Log in to your PayPal account.
2. after logging in, paste this into browser & CTRL-CLICK
https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-...
ALLOW POP-UPS!

right-hand side "My account tools"
Multi order Shipping
close the floating box.
File Menu | CREATE New Orders
Shipping Details
Apply Preset
USPS Package (Package/Thick Envelope) "First-Class Mail Parcel"
bubble mailer 3 oz or whatever
enter Ship To addresses & Ship From Address

select one or more rows by clicking on far-left green square
"green printer Print" - select row again

<<? allow popups on the new site?>>
Pay & Print (get tracking #), pay & print selected or (1)
Print Label (1 page) on pop-up
print (network print button)

Horntoad said:
If you didn't think people would get that many seeds then what is the point of the swap? If someone is going to just get a coulple of packs of seeds then they could just post what they have in the Plant and Seed Trading Forum. I have done this a few time and have always gotten a hundred of more packs.

Very true.

Even smaller quantity exchanges would work, too, but I think there would still be a great incentive even for the smaller quantities. (I know I could fit probably 10+ packets of seeds into the smaller envelopes, but even at that quantity I would be saving a lot of shipping if most of those were from different people because, at $3 per shipping, it really adds up!)

So I think I agree with you, we have to expect shipping to be $5.95.

You have also made me realize that we need an easy way to input tracking numbers. I will incorporate that into the plans, too! You're giving me ideas!!.... I'm beginning to think that there could be a "Trade Report" that the organizer could have access to which would have the name of each receiver's name and an input box for the tracking number.

Does anyone know if USPS sells or rents a scanning device (and software?) that scans the boxes and displays the tracking number so that it doesn't have to be manually typed? (I can type them if need be, but a scanner would be helpful.)

You people are trying to reinvent the wheel. This is a relatively simple process are you are trying to over complicate it.

How will it be decided who the central seed holder will be? Seems as if there is more than one volunteer?

DogsNDaylilies, Chile has the same restrictions as USA, but ..... a long time ago (DG times) I became really addicted to seed trading and developed great smuggler skills - never was one of my envelopes comphiscated! Yesterday I mailed 7 envelopes with Vigna caracalla seeds and the very attentive PO personnel did not even enquire if there was anythinge else than paper in the envelopes

So far I am the only ATP member in Chile, so I will trade with myself I don't want to cause any problems to ATP.

Ronnie, I think I'm going to be the central person this year for a couple of reasons (one which I've stated, another which is somewhat personal), but I would love to have volunteers for future years (which don't have to be designated now by any means)!