beckygardener said:Thanks, Char!
If the seedling is from a desired pod parent, does the seedling tend to have bloom traits that favor the pod parent? I've heard the issue of pod vs. pollen parent numerous times and have always wondered why?

Back when this question was asked I knew there was another thread with more information on the subject of pod vs. pollen. Found it while looking for something else . Adding the link to the Pod or Pollen Parent thread for more reading on that topic....

The thread "Pod or Pollen Parent" in Daylilies forum

Another one that has never set pods for me is Primal Scream. It's pollen works very well though.

Me too, Cindy. MEGATRON also...amazing bloom and plant.

I didn't get any pods to set on Megatron this year, but it set pods pretty easily the year before.

Really Kathy?! I made need you to come and help me next year...lol.

I was looking back through a couple of notes. WORTHY OF DISTINCTION has been a difficult pod parent for me. It will set, and I've done it, but usually once a season. MIDNIGHT MYSTERY is an old wine/near black that I really love and it just aborts any and everything you put on it.

I've had LARRY'S TWILIGHT BITE since it was introduced and it is difficult but this year finally set a single pod. With a single seed. It's readily pollen fertile though.

The last one is SILOAM GOLIATH. An enormous dinner plate of a bloom on big thick scapes. It very reluctantly will set a pod but they are often empty. The stamen are often kinked at the end and pinched as if they ran out of room to grow.

Ahead said:Really Kathy?! I made need you to come and help me next year...lol.

I'm pretty persistent when it comes to attempting crosses.

Kathy,

I have heard that! You have a gift!

There are several tet polys that are difficult/impossible pod setters including Ricochet Ruffles, Mach One, Amazing Sights and Poly Parrot. I have set on Osterized and Give Me Eight (it will take dip or tet pollen) but they're tough.

Lalambchop1 said:There are several tet polys that are difficult/impossible pod setters including Ricochet Ruffles, Mach One, Amazing Sights and Poly Parrot. I have set on Osterized and Give Me Eight (it will take dip or tet pollen) but they're tough.

@Lalambchop1
Have the seeds from Give Me Eight crossed with diploid pollens successfully germinated?

Have the seeds from Give Me Eight crossed with tetraploid pollens successfully germinated?

Hi Maurice,
Yes to both and there are registered offpring from both dip and tet.

Lalambchop1 said:there are registered offpring from both dip and tet.

AHS registered tetraploids from 'Give Me Eight':

Centennial Eight (Crawford, 2003) height 29in (74cm), bloom 8in (20.5cm), season M, Evergreen, Tetraploid, 10 buds, 2 branches, Polymerous 80%, Rose yellow blend above yellow throat. (Fuchsia Four × Give Me Eight)

Fuchsia Four is registered as a diploid:
Fuchsia Four (Reinke, 1995) height 22in (56cm), bloom 7in (18.0cm), season M, Rebloom, Semi-Evergreen, Diploid, Fragrant, Polymerous 90%, Fuchsia self with large green center and throat. (Open Hearth × Chance)

So 'Centennial Eight' is from a cross of a diploid pod parent with a diploid pollen parent 'Give Me Eight' and will not be a tetraploid. The registered ploidy seems to be an error.

From the same hybridizer, there is

Centennial Four Moons (Crawford, 2003)
height 38in (96cm), bloom 7in (18.0cm), season EM, Rebloom, Evergreen, Tetraploid, Very Fragrant, 21 buds, 4 branches, Polymerous 60%, Light yellow self. (Give Me Eight × Starry Day)

'Starry Day' is registered as a tetraploid,
Starry Day (Adams-Adams, 1991) height 34in (86cm), bloom 5.5in (14.0cm), season M, Dormant, Tetraploid, Clear yellow self with green throat.

However, 'Starry Day' may or may not be a tetraploid. The only person to have registered daylilies with 'Starry Day' is Crawford. The others of these are,

Centennial Purple Drum (Crawford, 2003) height 32in (81cm), bloom 6in (15.0cm), season M, Evergreen, Tetraploid, Fragrant, 17 buds, 3 branches, Polymerous 60%, Red purple with white midrib above yellow green throat. (Purple Petaloid × Starry Day)

Centennial Square (Crawford, 2003) height 31in (79cm), bloom 5in (12.5cm), season M, Evergreen, Tetraploid, 15 buds, 3 branches, Polymerous 90%, Rosy pink blend with darker watermark above green yellow throat. (Fuchsia Four × (Starry Day × Bethel Martin Memorial))

In each cross all the other daylilies involved are registered as diploids.
'Purple Petaloid' is registered as a diploid, so is 'Bethel Martin Memorial', See above for 'Fuchsia Four'.
Purple Petaloid (Carpenter-J., 1988) height 26in (66cm), bloom 6.5in (16.5cm), season M, Rebloom, Dormant, Diploid, Purple self with green yellow throat.
Bethel Martin Memorial (Martin-Crawford, 1992) height 25in (64cm), bloom 5in (12.5cm), season EM, Semi-Evergreen, Diploid, Pink blend with white midribs, dark pink ruffled edges and green yellow throat.

Diploid x tetraploid crosses nearly never work to produce viable seedlings. Those rare seedlings might be triploids or tetraploids. The probability that three diploids successfully crossed with a true tetraploid 'Starry Day' is very unlikely. I expect that those registered 'Centennial' tetraploids are in error and they are diploids including the one from 'Give Me Eight'. Possibly the daylily identified as 'Starry Day' was an unknown similar diploid or the registered 'Starry Day' was a diploid.

The last of the three registered tetraploids from 'Give Me Eight' is

Double Orange Angel Wings (Gossard-D., 2013) height 34in (86cm), bloom 8.5in (21.5cm), season M, Dormant, Tetraploid, Very Fragrant, 22 buds, 5 branches, Double 99%, Peachy orange with a yellow throat and alight purple eye. ((Affair D'Amour × Double Angels) × Tet. Give Me Eight)

This is a cross involving registered tetraploids and a converted tetraploid form of the diploid 'Give Me Eight' and is expected.

Getting seeds from 'Give Me Eight' is difficult in my experience with diploid pollen and its own pollen. I tried tetraploid pollen one year and all pollinations failed. I will try again next season but I am doubtful that they will be successful.

I checked the other tetraploid Crawford registrations. These are:

Centennial Gold Dream (Crawford, 2003) height 31in (79cm), bloom 6in (15.0cm), season EE, Dormant, Tetraploid, 10 buds, 3 branches, Polymerous 90%, Golden yellow self. (Open Hearth × Purple Petaloid)

Centennial Brady William (Crawford, 2003) height 38in (96cm), bloom 6in (15.0cm), season M, Evergreen, Tetraploid, 17 buds, 4 branches, Polymerous 60%, Red purple bitone above yellow throat. (Purple Petaloid × Hildred West)

From my other post above 'Purple Petaloid' is registered as a diploid; so are 'Open Hearth' and 'Hildred West':

Open Hearth (Lambert, 1976) height 26in (66cm), bloom 9in (23.0cm), season M, Dormant, Diploid, Unusual Form Spatulate, Red and copper bitone with Ruby halo and green throat. ((Droednoeth × Lonnie) × Chocolate Pudding)

Hildred West (Jernigan, 1988) height 30in (76cm), bloom 10in (25.5cm), season M, Dormant, Diploid, Fragrant, Yellow self.

These tetraploid registrations appear to be in error and diploid.

Stout states in his book Daylilies that out of 7,135 crosses on Europa ( that's the wild ditch lily) there were 23 capsules obtained. My first crosses were with wild fulva pollen on an unknown red and I got eight seeds. The pollen is a little easier. Started the seeds in the kitchen window in 1987. Ed Murray is about as tempermental but crosses with tets---sometimes. Have a bunch of seedlings from Ed X Saratoga Pinwheel and am getting too old for this- the addiction has worn itself out. On the other hand-maybe some early Spring seedlings on a reblooming one like Happy Returns..................................Hmmm.................


Ed Murray X Saratoga Pinwheel

Weedy



X Happy Returns???

The Spring blooming one has never in it's life set a seed and I must have raised it ten years ago!!

Out of the 23 capsules Stout had 70 seeds but most of those seeds did not produce seedlings. He managed to produce 11 seedlings in total from 7,135 pollinations. Hemerocallis fulva 'Europa' is a triploid and it is expected to be sterile with diploids; interestingly it is substantially more fertile with tetraploids.

'Ed Murray' is a diploid and it is the only diploid for which I consider that there is reasonable evidence that it does sometimes successfully cross with tetraploids.

Arisumi tried crossing diploids with tetraploids in both directions. He made 1,607 pollinations. He obtained 29 triploid seedlings only. He tested 82 different diploids and 75 different tetraploids. Most of the seedlings produced were from four parents. Since he wanted to produce triploids he worked more with crosses that did not drop their pods quickly. He chose to work with those plants likely to cross successfully so his results were probably substantially better than one can expect from crosses of diploid and tetraploid parents chosen without knowledge of their crossing behaviour (or chosen basically at random)

I just got Starry Day. I'll be interested to see what it does.

If one does a Google search with "starry day" and daylily as the search terms (with the quotes) one will find the post below,

"polymerous(9b)

Be aware that in some cases the AHS database is incorrect.

As an example, the polymerous daylily STARRY DAY is incorrectly listed as a tetraploid. If I recall correctly (it has been many years now), the hybridizer had no idea who the parents were (note that there is no parentage given). As he was otherwise hybridizing tetraploids, that is perhaps why he registered it as a tetraploid.

Going by its hybridizing behavior, however, various members of the snail mail poly round robins at that time determined that STARRY DAY is, in fact, a diploid. (I have confirmed that for myself, in some of my own crosses.)

Both the AHS database and the database on this site still list STARRY DAY as a tetraploid, yet if you look at the child plants, you can see that the crosses that produced them are with diploids. For some reason that I do not understand, however, THOSE child plants are also all listed as tetraploids - yet I know for a fact that the other plants involved in the crosses (GIVE ME EIGHT, PURPLE PETALOID, FUCHSIA FOUR) are all diploids.

So the AHS database is not entirely trustworthy when it comes to ploidy."

Japanese researchers checked a sample of AHS registered daylilies for ploidy and found that on average, one out of twenty cultivars has incorrect ploidy in the database [Ploidy estimation in Hemerocallis species and cultivars by flow cytometry published in Scientia Horticulturae, Volume 97, 2003 pages 185-192.]

There is also a comment in the ATP daylily database concerning the ploidy of 'Starry Day' made by the same author, presumably.

A Google search also found this comment (from 2008 made in a closed group on Yahoo). What I have posted below is all of the message I can see, not being a member of the group.

Daylily-PolyTalk - Yahoo Groups
https://groups.yahoo.com/group...

Apr 25, 2008 - 2 posts
Reinkes, TN. Hello All,. First to Buck--Thanks for the information on Starry Day.
Adams checks in with Bill occasionally, so will pass the information on to him that SD is a dip. Maybe we will have time during the coming ...

Two personal anecdotes about difficult pod setters.

1. I purchased a cultivar about 15 years ago that was registered as a tetraploid. It was a fast increaser and I pollinated hundreds of its flowers with tetraploid pollen every year. Many of the flowers set pods but they were all aborted. In a couple of years one pod set and matured producing a reasonable number of seeds. Because most of the pollinations acted as if they were between a tetraploid and a diploid (pods set but were aborted after a few weeks) I would in some years try some diploid pollen on a flower. Those crosses did not mature pods either. Then one year I thought very carefully about the behaviour of its tetraploid pollinated flowers, about the crosses that its hybridizer's tended to make and decided that it was probably a diploid cultivar and not a tetraploid. That year I tried only diploid pollen on every flower. It set and matured pods. Any time I pollinate it now I use diploid pollen. It is not a difficult pod setter with diploid pollen. It is a diploid. So where did the couple of pods come from when I was using only tetraploid pollen on its flowers? Probably from natural insect pollinations with diploid pollen that happened before I pollinated the flowers with tetraploid pollen.

2. Tetrina's Daughter is a tetraploid from Hemerocallis citrina. It is quite difficult to get seeds from it with tetraploid pollen although pods do set. Most of the pods abort after a few weeks. It is night blooming with the flowers starting to open in the afternoon. H. citrina has a strong self-incompatibility system. If one pollinates the flowers of Tetrina's Daughter in the afternoon as they are starting to open then pods set and seeds mature. What normally happens is that night-flying moths visit the flowers and self-pollinate them before the morning. Any pollen added by a hybridizer after that is outcompeted by Tetrina's Daughter's own pollen that was deposited by the moths the night before. Those pods will abort due to self-incompatibility. That is not an uncommon reason for pods being aborted on daylilies that start opening their flowers before morning.

A daylily cultivar may be a difficult pod setter because it was registered with the wrong ploidy or because insects are naturally self-pollinating it before the hybridizer and it has a strong self-incompatibility system. Depending on the cultivar and what other cultivars are being grown nearby insects may also be naturally cross-pollinating a cultivar with pollen of the wrong ploidy before the hybridizer.

Maurice, how fascinating! Good to know about Starry Day. I'm disappointed but better to know it's true ploidy. I'd never heard of self-incompatability. Must look into that more.