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Dec 22, 2018 7:52 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: Danita
GA (Zone 7b)
Charter ATP Member Forum moderator Hummingbirder Salvias Butterflies Birds
Plant Identifier Vegetable Grower Container Gardener Seed Starter Cat Lover Region: Georgia
Hello,

I noticed that our database still has these listed as separate plants. According to the breeder, the late Rich Dufresne, "Navajo Bright Red" is just a trademark name that Ball gave to his cultivar called 'Cherry Chief'.

"Salvia greggii 'Navajo Bright Red' is the same as Salvia greggii x microphylla 'Cherry Chief'. I supplied Ball Seed with the original material for propagation."
https://www.houzz.com/discussi...


Autumn Sage (Salvia Navajo™ Bright Red)

Also, since this is a Salvia greggii x microphylla cross, it should be listed as Salvia x jamensis.

Thanks,
Danita
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Dec 22, 2018 12:12 PM CST
Plants Admin
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Region: Ukraine Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis
Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Plant Database Moderator Garden Ideas: Master Level
@Marilyn, could you look into this, please?
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Dec 22, 2018 12:55 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Danita
GA (Zone 7b)
Charter ATP Member Forum moderator Hummingbirder Salvias Butterflies Birds
Plant Identifier Vegetable Grower Container Gardener Seed Starter Cat Lover Region: Georgia
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Dec 22, 2018 1:01 PM CST
Plants Admin
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Region: Ukraine Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis
Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Plant Database Moderator Garden Ideas: Master Level
Thank you for the second confirming link, Danita. Marilyn will want to know about this.

Incidentally, it would be wrong to change the botanical name to Salvia x jamensis. The hybrid taxon applies only to spontaneous crosses occurring in the wild, not to "man-made" hybrids.

Last edited by zuzu Dec 22, 2018 1:04 PM Icon for preview
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Dec 22, 2018 1:10 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Danita
GA (Zone 7b)
Charter ATP Member Forum moderator Hummingbirder Salvias Butterflies Birds
Plant Identifier Vegetable Grower Container Gardener Seed Starter Cat Lover Region: Georgia
It's been fairly common knowledge for years in the Salvia and hummingbird gardening circles. I just noticed the mistake in the database, though.

More synonyms that I'll investigate for accuracy in the database.

Quote by Rich,

"My contributions to the Navajo series were:

Salvia greggii 'Navajo True Red' = Salvia greggii `Orange Basket'

Salvia greggii 'Navajo Pink' = Salvia greggii `Strawberry Fields'

Salvia greggii 'Navajo Rose' = Salvia greggii `Cherry Ice

Salvia greggii 'Navajo Bright Red' = Salvia greggii x microphylla `Cherry Chief'

Salvia greggii 'Navajo Dark Purple' = Salvia greggii x lycioides 'Los Lirios'

All but Los Lirios (distributed by Yucca-Do, either their collection, or by Pat McNeal) are from my gardens in Greensboro."

https://www.tapatalk.com/group...
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Dec 22, 2018 1:14 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Danita
GA (Zone 7b)
Charter ATP Member Forum moderator Hummingbirder Salvias Butterflies Birds
Plant Identifier Vegetable Grower Container Gardener Seed Starter Cat Lover Region: Georgia
zuzu said:Thank you for the second confirming link, Danita. Marilyn will want to know about this.

Incidentally, it would be wrong to change the botanical name to Salvia x jamensis. The hybrid taxon applies only to spontaneous crosses occurring in the wild, not to "man-made" hybrids.


The database already lists many man-made greggii x microphylla (or reverse) crosses as "x jamensis".
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Dec 22, 2018 1:15 PM CST
Plants Admin
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Region: Ukraine Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis
Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Plant Database Moderator Garden Ideas: Master Level
Well, it shouldn't.

Edited to add a clarification to that terse statement. It depends on the origin of the plants. If they are selections from a wild population, they can be listed as Salvia x jamensis. If, on the other hand, a hybridizer deliberately crosses S. greggii with S. microphylla, the resulting plant is not S. x jamensis.

Last edited by zuzu Dec 22, 2018 2:23 PM Icon for preview
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Dec 22, 2018 2:31 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Danita
GA (Zone 7b)
Charter ATP Member Forum moderator Hummingbirder Salvias Butterflies Birds
Plant Identifier Vegetable Grower Container Gardener Seed Starter Cat Lover Region: Georgia
Yikes, given their (S. greggii & S. microphylla) propensity to interbreed in both the wild and in cultivation, I imagine that it would be extremely difficult (impossible?) to sort out which were decedents of the plants actually collected in Jame and which weren't. If you restricted "× jamensis" use to only the plants collected in the wild by Compton and Yucca Do in Jame ('Sierra de San Antonio', 'Pat Vlasto', etc) then that might be doable. However, what do you use as an epithet for the man-made or cultivated versions of the same cross? Using "greggii" is even more inappropriate and including no epithet at all would be incredibly confusing. Salvia greggii × microphylla (or reverse, if known) would be appropriate but I didn't think that was an option in our database.

The horticultural societies, industry, botanical gardens, etc. commonly use "× jamensis" for both wild and cultivated versions. Unfortunately, some companies call everything "greggii" even when plants are clearly hybrids or even pure S. microphylla. Rolling my eyes.

I'm not sure if there is an easy solution for this particular issue.

(Edit, after seeing your edit Smiling ... Yes, I'm aware that is technically correct. I'm just not sure how they can be listed here without making an even more egregious taxonomic/nomenclature error, or creating total confusion. Shrug! )
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Last edited by Danita Dec 22, 2018 2:52 PM Icon for preview
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Dec 22, 2018 3:45 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Danita
GA (Zone 7b)
Charter ATP Member Forum moderator Hummingbirder Salvias Butterflies Birds
Plant Identifier Vegetable Grower Container Gardener Seed Starter Cat Lover Region: Georgia
1. Salvia greggii 'Navajo True Red' = Salvia greggii `Orange Basket'

Neither name is listed in the database. I submitted a proposal.

2. Salvia greggii 'Navajo Pink' = Salvia greggii `Strawberry Fields'

`Strawberry Fields' is not in the database so I proposed a name addition.

3. Salvia greggii 'Navajo Rose' = Salvia greggii `Cherry Ice'

'Cherry Ice' is not in the database so I proposed a name addition.

4. Salvia greggii 'Navajo Bright Red' = Salvia greggii x microphylla `Cherry Chief'

We're discussing this little gremlin in this thread so I won't propose anything yet. Green Grin!

5. Salvia greggii 'Navajo Dark Purple' = Salvia greggii x lycioides 'Los Lirios'

Oh my, another little gremlin. This is speculated to be a S. greggii x lycioides cross. It is definitely not a pure greggii.
http://www.worldofsalvias.com/...

To add further confusion, there is a pink-flowered Salvia greggii × microphylla/Salvia x jamensis plant also called 'Los Lirios'. Rolling my eyes.
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Dec 22, 2018 5:26 PM CST
Plants Admin
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Region: Ukraine Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis
Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Plant Database Moderator Garden Ideas: Master Level
Let's blame it all on the companies. Big Grin Yes, greggii is absolutely wrong in these cases. What we do in cases of hybrid plants is list only the genus and then show the parentage in the parentage field of the entry. We also list some names in the also-sold-as field when the epithet is incorrect but is commonly used.

I'm going to let Marilyn propose the edits or merges for these names, but I will make sure that all of them are covered. Your work in finding all of these is greatly appreciated.
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Dec 22, 2018 5:45 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Danita
GA (Zone 7b)
Charter ATP Member Forum moderator Hummingbirder Salvias Butterflies Birds
Plant Identifier Vegetable Grower Container Gardener Seed Starter Cat Lover Region: Georgia
I've already proposed changes for the simple fixes. May I ask why they are not acceptable? I don't understand why Marilyn needs to do it. Shrug!
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Dec 22, 2018 5:48 PM CST
Plants Admin
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Region: Ukraine Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis
Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Plant Database Moderator Garden Ideas: Master Level
Don't worry. I haven't looked at proposals yet. I'm still catching up on watched threads and tree-mails after being out for most of the day. Marilyn doesn't have to do it, but I do want her to be aware of all this because she moderates the Salvia Forum and contributes most of the information for the Salvia Database.
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Dec 22, 2018 6:30 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Danita
GA (Zone 7b)
Charter ATP Member Forum moderator Hummingbirder Salvias Butterflies Birds
Plant Identifier Vegetable Grower Container Gardener Seed Starter Cat Lover Region: Georgia
Ah, I understand. It's not as if you could be busy for the holidays or anything! Hilarious!

Thanks! Green Grin!
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Dec 22, 2018 9:35 PM CST
Name: Marilyn
Kentucky (Zone 6a)
Laughter is the Best Medicine!
Region: United States of America Rabbit Keeper Hummingbirder Salvias Charter ATP Member Birds
Echinacea Butterflies Tender Perennials Bee Lover Container Gardener Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
Danita said:Hello,

I noticed that our database still has these listed as separate plants. According to the breeder, the late Rich Dufresne, "Navajo Bright Red" is just a trademark name that Ball gave to his cultivar called 'Cherry Chief'.

"Salvia greggii 'Navajo Bright Red' is the same as Salvia greggii x microphylla 'Cherry Chief'. I supplied Ball Seed with the original material for propagation."
https://www.houzz.com/discussi...


Autumn Sage (Salvia Navajo™ Bright Red)

Also, since this is a Salvia greggii x microphylla cross, it should be listed as Salvia x jamensis.

Thanks,
Danita


@FBTS Kermit,

You are very knowledgeable on salvias, could you chime in regarding these two salvias and the rest of this thread when you have the time please?

These links below are the salvias in our database....

Autumn Sage (Salvia Navajo™ Bright Red)



Thank you very much.
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Last edited by Marilyn Dec 22, 2018 10:42 PM Icon for preview
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Dec 22, 2018 10:26 PM CST
Name: Marilyn
Kentucky (Zone 6a)
Laughter is the Best Medicine!
Region: United States of America Rabbit Keeper Hummingbirder Salvias Charter ATP Member Birds
Echinacea Butterflies Tender Perennials Bee Lover Container Gardener Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
I started doing a google search on Cherry Chief. Besides FBTS, there is mention on the Almost Eden and Plant Delights websites of it being a Rich Dufresne introduction.

AE stated CC as mid to late 80's (which I didn't know had been around that long).

PD stated CC being an 1987 introduction.

https://almostedenplants.com/s...

https://www.plantdelights.com/...
Welcome to the Agastache and Salvias Forum!

Hummingbirds are beautiful flying jewels in the garden!


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Dec 22, 2018 11:08 PM CST
Plants Admin
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Region: Ukraine Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis
Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Plant Database Moderator Garden Ideas: Master Level
Marilyn, I don't think anyone's questioning Dufresne's introduction of Cherry Chief. We're concerned about Dufresne's connection to the Ball Navajo series. If he did provide the material for Ball's product, the two entries should be merged.
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Dec 23, 2018 12:59 AM CST
Plants Admin
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Region: Ukraine Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis
Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Plant Database Moderator Garden Ideas: Master Level
Marilyn, I'm going to go ahead and merge those two entries because it's clear that they are the same plant.

Autumn Sage (Salvia Navajo™ Bright Red)
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Dec 23, 2018 7:50 PM CST
Name: Marilyn
Kentucky (Zone 6a)
Laughter is the Best Medicine!
Region: United States of America Rabbit Keeper Hummingbirder Salvias Charter ATP Member Birds
Echinacea Butterflies Tender Perennials Bee Lover Container Gardener Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
Thank you Zuzu.
Welcome to the Agastache and Salvias Forum!

Hummingbirds are beautiful flying jewels in the garden!


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