I just realized that I've depended more on the yellow throat than any other characteristic for calling them Flore pleno. This discussion might change that. Perhaps mine will all become Kwanso 'flore pleno'; I'll just take the easy way out.

I'll go you one better and just call mine...'Pretty!'

Heart2Heart said:

... interessting

should it be same as `Green Kwanso`! So if we belive in in hybridizer information ... Variegata is a cross of Green Kwanzo and Flore Pleno.

'Variegated Kwanso' was in existence long before Stout (one description dated 1784 in the Descriptive Catalog of Hemerocallis Clones 1893 -1948). He did not hybridize these triploid doubles although they were "registered" by him when the Descriptive Catalog listing was compiled. In that Catalog there is a note under 'Variegated Kwanso' that says "(see Green Kwanso and Flore Pleno)" meaning refer also to those entries in the catalog.

Subsequently, when the first Hemerocallis Check List 1893 to 1957 came out, somehow that preceding word "see" was left out so that it just said "(Green Kwanso and Flore Pleno)". When this was then transcribed to the AHS Database the person entering that data must have taken it to mean parentage, even though parentage would have been written (parent x parent) rather than (parent and parent). Another error in the AHS database is that these doubles are listed as diploid.

So the parentage was included in error. As Maurice said, these doubles cannot produce seed so couldn't be crossed together.

Because 'Variegated Kwanso' sometimes produces all green fans, Stout thought the green Kwansos may have originated vegetatively from it.

Becky, my daylilies along the fence are not very thick yet. But I'm sure I will be able to get a picture of them in the next week or two when what is there starts blooming. I also planted some sunflowers just for fun along this row. Some are getting more shade than others, and it is really obvious!

Thanks Seed. Maybe I'll just leave it in the database where it is. I had wondered if I should ask for it to be moved.

blue23rose,
Yes, I would leave it. I think there is a total mixup of both in the data base, but not too sure it really matters. I would love to have someone challenge the accuracy of all the pics and explain how they arrived at their conclusions.

hello everybody. Hemlady at DG directed me to this thread as I had just recently posted the question over there. I have enjoyed your discussion but not sure if has gotten me closer to determining what I have. so, I took a couple of pics.



two of the 18 tepals where like this one, they had a little flap. Not smooth, single tepals like the remaining 16


18 tepals

Well, being I brought the subject up, I will step in over my head and say to me it looks like...neither? The colors are so washed out and pale and the bloom is so...disarrayed. Anyone want to jump in with an opinion?

Hi Vossner!

I think at the moment we are all a little confused. I'm still waiting for mine to bloom.
Surely somebody soon will have an Ah-Ha moment and we might be able to tell more specific differences between the two.

We can't rely on color, I think, because of differences in cameras, screens, or lighting, but I agree it doesn't look like what I've seen or what I have. It almost looks like an alien ditchlily instead of Kwanso or Flore Pleno

I have been trying to just follow along to learn what I can, but I am totally confused about either one of them.

the bloom is more than a day old, maybe older than that. might explain faded colors. They were brighter when first appeared.

That is a difficult determination to make. If we go by the number of petals alone, I'm leaning toward Flore Pleno. Still waiting for mine to bloom too.

vossner said:the bloom is more than a day old, maybe older than that. might explain faded colors. They were brighter when first appeared.

Oh, that explains a lot, how about a pic of a fresh bloom?

I suspect the cultivars need to be relooked at by a systematist. It is quite possible there is very little difference to distinguish them and the division is meaningless or - one cultivars more than predominates in horticulture and who knows what it is.

Gleni, I agree! I went back and read this article(http://mertzdigital.nybg.org/c...) about the early history and even way back at the beginning they were confused :
"The Gardeners' Chronicle in 1867 ( 32: 292) speaks of this plant introduced by von Siebold under the name Hemerocallis Kwanso flore- pleno and states that it " is merely a variety of H. fidva"
So I was kidding when I said mentioned a DNA test early in order to tell the difference, now I am serious about it!

I was just thinking and began to wonder: "What is the source for the number of petaloids or tepals being a distinguishing factor between these to plants?" I keep seeing that repeated every where on the net, but where did it come from originally, just from some gardener or from a University study...anyone know? Is this even reliable information or is it just repeated so much it is becoming accepted?
Doing a net search, this tread is becoming a source of information many people will find when they are searching for the difference between the two plants (even my misposting on this thread to the rose forum has appeared in my searching)
I have stumbled across things I posted about plants early in my gardening days that were totally wrong, but once posted on the internet are there forever (sorry about that) but I am sure it will happen again. It just makes me wonder sometimes about what we accept as fact!
Is the difference in the number of petaloids a determining factor in distinguishing the two plants?

Yes, Seed, it is quite amazing. What we write here shows up in a web search in a matter of minutes now. Right or wrong or quizzical.
It is a lesson, as you say. Search results all seems wonderful, amazingly informative and helpful until you come across things you actually know something about........

I did find this:
http://www.hemerocallis-specie...
Go down to" Flowers" then down to "number of segments" "'Flore Pleno' is normally sterile as there is no pollen or pistil visible, but up to eighteen tepals."

I just found this thread...very interesting stuff! I grow both Kwanso variegata and Flore Pleno (I believe). The variegata does throw all green fans, but I find that those green fans also throw some variegated fans before long. I think the all-green Kwanso may be a different variety and stay all green.

I can't locate the source, but I have read that there are two mutations that cause doubling in daylilies. One arises in the petal tissue and creates a 'hose in hose' flower....new petals in rows of three, usually with a normal grouping of stamens and a pistil in the center. Since these petals arise from petal tissue, they are fully formed and normal in appearance. An example of these would be the daylily, Leader of the Pack. It is supposed to have nine petals all the time, with stamens and pistil intact. I just bought it this spring and haven't seen it bloom yet, so am uploading a picture from the internet. A second type of doubling in daylilies is caused by a mutation that causes the stamens to become petals. These petals are often not fully formed, and are twisted and show bits of the anther stuck to the side. I am uploading a picture of Double Bourbon, (second picture below, colored like Kwanso) which seems to show some of that type of doubling. Since the stamens are mutated into petals, they are absent or reduced in number.

I believe that the Kirchhoff strains interbreed both of these mutations, so you see some modern doubles with 'clean' petals and some with more bits and pieces of anther showing. I prefer the regularity of the hose-in-hose blooms, although I must admit that Barbara Watts is gorgeous. We just bought her this spring and her blooms are very large. I would guess her breeding is a mixture of both types of doubles since the petals aren't in neat rows like Leader of the Pack. Her picture is at the bottom of the three.

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread. Reading it really 'made' my day!

Addendum.....I uploaded three pictures with this and was able to view them in PREVIEW. Why didn't they post? This is my first time on ALL THINGS PLANTS....help!

Addendum...after trying three or four times to post the pictures, I switched from Firefox to Internet Explorer and they worked fine. Apparently the software doesn't like Mozilla Firefox. Thanks to Tina and Seedfork for posting pictures and helping me figure this out. Great forum!

Nice to learn about hose-in-hose versus other doubling features, Bob. I don't know why your uploads did not work - have you tried just using the ATP code for pictures from the database? I'll include them here:

Leader of the Pack


Double Bourbon


Barbara Watts


If you go to the ATP daylily database at:

The Daylilies Database

...and click on a flower picture inside the cultivar you search out (for example:



... you'll see a code that looks something like this "db_photo]184646[/db_photo" with brackets on either side ... just copy and past it into your post and it will appear.

There is also a Help Center at http://garden.org/forums/view/... to assist with any difficulties you might have in uploading pictures from your computer to ATP. Hope this helps.