@Lyn

The reference to the work place ethics brings to mind the tobacco executives that were aware of the damage of their product but lied and dedtroyed the evidence

The Louisiana BP oil spill they new they new the accident would happen but becsuse of greed they did nothing.

We have seen over and over how corporstions and the executives mind work. Profit first regardless of how many people die or suffer.

The LOVE for money is the root of all evil. Amen!

Not really, Becky. Some people are simply evil and place no value in others. Consider the cop-killers. That's just one example.

Becky, your comment brought back a memory of Francisco's speech about money being the root of all evil in Ayn Rand's book Atlas Shrugged

http://capitalismmagazine.com/...

It was thought provoking when I first read it and it is still thought provoking. Whether or not I agree with all that Rand wrote in her books and essays is not the purpose of this post. What she wrote about money being the root of all evil has stayed with me since I first read this essay over 45 years ago.

drdawg said:Not really, Becky. Some people are simply evil and place no value in others. Consider the cop-killers. That's just one example.

Cop killers, Private citizen killers are all the same. EVIL! The problem is the killing appears to be viewed different if the killer has a suit on and sits behind the cloak of business and it is all in a days work.

When that business kills it has no eyes. It does not care that it is killing a cop or your baby in the crib sucking her/his bottle.

Well, the way I look at it .... big corporations, those in power .... harm/kill MORE innocents .... people, animals, insects (bees & butterflies), plants, etc. ..... than an individual that kills a police officer, a child, etc. Those in power kill hundreds, thousands, not a few. THAT to me is true evil. They KNOW what they are doing! They don't have possible mental illness. They are ruthless and think others have no value so taking lives is part of collateral damage for their big profit schemes. They have no conscience. It's all about the $$$$$$'s. THAT is evil. When money is more important than the lives of others.

I do see a difference.

Do you honestly think it is limited to corporations ???

Sorry. Maybe I don't have the same view as those who live in more urban areas. I see greedy people cutting down trees to for light for their illegal pot grows to thrive. That is the money crop up here.

Oh, yeah, state after state is approving medical and now some recreational use of marijuana and the voters have no idea of how the growers are raping the earth to grow their crops. You do hear about how the greedy corporations, yes they are greedy, are destroying our earth with pesticides, but that is only part of how they, too, are destroying the earth.

Kill bees ? The greedy pot growers ... not corporations ... are using tons, yes, tons, of pesticides, rodentcides, fertilizers to pollute the streams and rivers and poison the food chain of wild animals to grow their money crop. They use pit bulls and guns to guard their grows. They turn the dogs loose to run in packs after the pot is harvested. They are destroying the forests. All you hear about is that people have a right to their medicine of choice.

I have seen fewer pollinators in my garden year after year since I moved up here. The bees have not been killed by greedy corporations, but they have still been killed by greed. Oh, btw, they call the growers who cut down their neighbors trees for light for their grows "bad actors". They can't even call them the scum that they are because they might unite. I live in the wild west where law does not prevail.

Greed and power is not new. It just has a different face. All you have to do is look at world history. You can take it back further than Biblical times and it is the same dynamic.

Think of the Roman Empire, the "Divine Right of Kings", the robber barons. It is power that corrupts. Yes, money is part of it, but that is not what corrupts.

Back in the day when I owned a tax practice, corporations were taxed on their world-wide income. When that changed, jobs and money started leaving this country and that's when corporations started becoming more powerful because they no longer had to pay their fair share of taxes. They no longer had to live by the same rules as the rest of us. They now had funds to pay for lobbyests and to destroy our representative government. That government, or the concept of that government, is now a myth.

The day when corporations no longer were accountable for all of the profits earned was the day they won the first round. It's taken most of my adult life before people began to even see the impact of how that changed the world we live in today.

OK. I'll get off of my soap box. I was trying not to jump on it because I know I see things from a very different point of view.

Lyn - Your perspective is valued. You are right .... it is throughout our human history! I see corporation damage. You see individuals damaging our world.

It all comes down to greed and opportunity. And look what has happened. Pretty darn sad, huh?

My goodness. Please be so kind as to tell me who of you don't purchase anything produced/sold by "large" corporations. If you don't believe in capitalism, just what do you believe in. I neither want to support nor condone businesses that do harm to mankind, but who in the world decides their motives? There is truly no answers to my questions. The Industrial Revolution began America's greatness, and capitalism has paid for American's gift to mankind. We are still a just, a fair, and a loving nation. What other nation will do/can do what we have done over the last 100 years? I am so sick and tired of those who say America should just isolate herself from the world's problems and let bad and evil prevail. We are by no means a perfect people, but what nation out there can say we are what others should strive to be? ]

Just my thoughts and my opinion.

I would like "responsible" corporations that do little to no harm to our planet and living things. I guess I am asking for too much, huh?

It is in the eye of the beholder, Becky. As I said, there is really no answers to these questions. How many things do you and I buy that are made in China, a repressive, oppressive, Communist nation?

I used to buy American until many of the companies moved their businesses to these foreign countries. The choices of which products from responsible companies is getting more and more limited.

RoseBlush1 said:...
Back in the day when I owned a tax practice, corporations were taxed on their world-wide income. When that changed, jobs and money started leaving this country and that's when corporations started becoming more powerful because they no longer had to pay their fair share of taxes. They no longer had to live by the same rules as the rest of us. They now had funds to pay for lobbyists and to destroy our representative government. That government, or the concept of that government, is now a myth.

The day when corporations no longer were accountable for all of the profits earned was the day they won the first round. It's taken most of my adult life before people began to even see the impact of how that changed the world we live in today.

I didn't know about the tax change where "offshore -profits are tax-free". No wonder they have off-shored and out-sourced every possible job, factory and call center.

I thought it was just so the work could be done by very poor people for pennies instead of fellow country-people for dollars. At least that had the side benefit of bringing some income to poorer countries and people.

Now you explain it's also a way to get the benefits of both countries without paying taxes for most of what they get.

The fix is in!

(I blame Citizen's United for legalizing what is really bribery, making it almost necessary to get elected. But your point about the tax code is also huge.)

" If you don't believe in capitalism, just what do you believe in. I neither want to support nor condone businesses that do harm to mankind, but who in the world decides their motives?"

Ken it is not about not believing in capitalism. I believe in not harming where you live for a buck. That was not what capitalism use to mean. Does capitalism mean that you poop in your living room? Does capitalism mean you do not care about your fellow citizens, their family? Does capitalism mean you do not care about your country?

An example of past corporations.....I am old enough to remember Allegheny Airlines when they had a Christmas party for their employees and told them to bring their family and loads of presents were handed out to each and every one of those employee and their family. Add to that was a nice bonus for the employees every Christmas. A pension plan was fully paid by the company so that when the employee retired they did not have to eat cat food. In steps today so called Capitalism and away went the heart for the employee and their family. Welcome USAir.

All the big corporation went down that road of what they now call Capitalism.

I believe in making money. I buy and sell homes, I am a landlord. But my tenants do not live in unsafe conditions. When something breaks it is fixed in 24 hrs. I cannot tell you how many times I have heard "My past landlord would not fix the roof, leaking pipe etc", these people are paying $800 - $1,000 a month for rent and had to live with a bucket in the middle of the floor waiting for the landlord to fix a problem. Of course they have the option of turning the landlord in but the courts give them time to fix it after the tenant has waited for a court date to air their problem to get results.

IMO Capitalism should not be a free pass to poop on your country, customer, employees and fellow citizens. If I did that to my tenants I could not sleep at night. I cannot say "What is wrong with my tenants, don't they believe in Capitalism"

My, my. So negative.

Ken, I also used to be more of a Booster for capitalism (as practiced then) and the USA, as I thought the USA was back then.

I think that both have gone WAY downhill in the greedy, heartless, inhumane, conscienceless, rapaciously exploitative direction. Maybe I was more naive 30 years ago, or maybe things were as much better back then as I imagined them to be.

Bitter negativity is a reasonable reaction when dearly cherished beliefs are shattered and beloved institutions are taken over by sociopaths who appear to literally worship Greed as a crusading religion.

As always when we disagree, I respect you a lot even when I disagree with some of your opinions or political position.

I'm simply not so sure of that catch-all phrase, "greed". I think every human being wants, within reason, to make as much money as possible. Would that be called something other than greed? Thank God, most want to do it honestly. Some just don't care. Again, this just comes down to ethics, morality, and the respect for all mankind. Some are not only greedy but are also power-seekers. That's a bad combination for sure. I am not nearly smart enough or wise enough to know the solution to America's and the world's problems. I am not bitter though. Have no time for that. Disappointed would be a better term. I learned an awful long time ago to not waste my energy and to not waste my time on things I have absolutely no control over or even influence over.

Ken - I do think WE have some power to change things! One of the most recent cause of change that I have seen is the Change.org site. It HAS made a difference and those changes were made by ordinary people like you and me. In fact, I haven't seen as many changes from anything else as I have with the internet ability to create petitions and send them around the globe for signatures.

Corrupt people and companies don't want the negative exposure, but change.org is one way to do that. These powerful people and companies might be able to control the politicians and the media, but they have not been able to control the petitions on Change.org. Some of the petitions have been created by children who saw something that they felt was dangerous or unjust and they started a petition. It is a way to protest without showing up in person with a picket sign. I think it is worth mentioning!

https://www.change.org/

I think I agreed with (almost) everything in that post.

drdawg said:I'm simply not so sure of that catch-all phrase, "greed". I think every human being wants, within reason, to make as much money as possible. Would that be called something other than greed?

drdawg said:Thank God, most want to do it honestly. Some just don't care. Again, this just comes down to ethics, morality, and the respect for all mankind. Some are not only greedy but are also power-seekers. That's a bad combination for sure.

Agree, with minor qualifications. Enough money BECOMES power, in part because in capitalism, enough money puts you mostly above the law, and because they can buy representatives who then write laws to protect their patron..

>> Some just don't care.

Agreed, and I think that is part of the definition of "sociopath". but to be fair to sociopaths, they are mentally damaged sot hat they CAN'T feel compassion or understand that people matter and causing them pain and grief and poverty is a BAD thing, as seen by human beings.

Some CEOs and politicians may not be classic sociopaths: they may REMEMBER something about morality and human compassion, but have trained themselves out of it to advance faster and get more power and money.

Some sociopathic ATP members may be offended that I compared them to narcissistic Trump and typical upper managers: quite right, I apologize, mental deficiency is nothing compared to CHOOSING actions that, by what I was taught as a child, richly deserve the punishment of Hell.

Another minor different perspective:

Some wallow in their power to do ANYthing they want, and seem to relish pooping on as many people as they can, as publicly as they can, perhaps to make the point that they CAN break any rule and commit any sin yet remain famous and powerful and not shunned by decent people.

(Trump is an extreme example, but he might be like using a black swan as an example.) I worked for one guy that was clearly a sadist, he showed such joy when he used his power to grossly insult and abuse people publicly.

I agree strongly with: "Thank God, most want to do it honestly."

And I know that many want to do it decently, or at least retain their own delusion that they are decent-enough people, entitled to be called MEMBERS of the human race. In my book, you have to act like one to be called one.

But some really consider themselves "above those suckers" that obey the law or religious guidelines. Traditional criminals feel that way: if you give a "sucker" an even break, you yourself must be a sucker. We all know that this kind of criminal or mentally deficient person is the common enemy of all decent mankind, but we seem slow to realize the same thing is true of those who cloak themselves in pretense so they can preen and strut in the hallways of power while selling the country and the future of the middle class to the very rich.

drdawg said: I am not nearly smart enough or wise enough to know the solution to America's and the world's problems.

Neither am I, but you're wise enough to avoid putting forth dubious ideas or complaints without solutions. I figure that if I'm not on a barricade with a shotgun or running for office, I owe my ancestors some kind of civil resistance even if it is only calling a spade a spade.

drdawg said: I am not bitter though. Have no time for that. Disappointed would be a better term. I learned an awful long time ago to not waste my energy and to not waste my time on things I have absolutely no control over or even influence over.

Again, most of that might be wiser than my reactions, but I'm going to keep trying.

Thanks very much for not taking my very bitter words about "the system" as a personal attack on you.

I know that you're the kind of dentist who gave help to poor people without even telling them it was charity. 100% the OPPOSITE of what I criticize in serial murderers, wife and child abusers, politicians and CEOs.

All problems are solved by each person doing what they know to be right. It's like dropping a pebble into a pond, watch as the ripples keep expanding outward. I can not fix any of big issues on the planet. What I can and try to do is live my own life as responsibly as I can and I hope more and more people will do the same.

Yes, it's all natural, people have been naturally slow to consider consequences. We still won't. All I need to do is look at the isles of any drugstore and see shelf after shelf and tier after tier of products designed for us to wash daily into the water, then I multiply that by the number of such stores in my tiny city. Each month, practically, there is a "new Disposable" cleaning tool or cosmetic tool, I groan at the enormity of the consumer problem alone!

We will not do what is required if it means we need to give up our "life style" to do so. We want our cars, air conditioners, electric lights in every room we're in, whether or not light is required for a task, we have sanitized our selves to rampant allergies and weak immunity. I could go on endlessly but the truth is, if we can find a way to stay in denial, we will. Then say, it's all the natural order, no reason for me to act responsibly.

Yup, it was all going to come to an end some day, EVEN the planet, so why bother mitigating our damage, let us rush as fast as we can to oblivion, and lets take us many other critters with us as we can, (why spare them!?) Above all, lets blame nature and call it the natural order even as the smartest minds on the planet say "We did a lot of this", that can't be true because I don't want to believe it is.

I was an environmental advocate for 35 years. We stated passing tipping point after tipping point. I went home and shut up. At all levels we must suffer the consequences of our behavior. We teach our children that but can not and will not walk the walk.

These days I just try to keep my personal life and stuff in good order. I have faith that IF, and only IF, we get our minds right, people are incredibly invent, creative and able. We might just start a reversal yet. I am not holding my breath. (it's dark so...