What a pain these duplicate names are! Now that I'm adding parentage data, I find that the system invariably creates a link to the wrong plant. 'Amberlight' is important in breeding, but our system kept creating a link to 'Fyvie Castle' because one of its alternative names is 'Amberlight.' I solved the problem by adding a qualifier to the inappropriate plant: 'Amberlight (Cocker)'. I ran into the same thing with 'Caprice,' so I've named the 'Caprice' that isn't involved in breeding programs 'Caprice (Leenders).' I hope there aren't too many of these cases. I really wanted a nice, clean database, without lots of extraneous information attached to the names, especially because I know that the breeder's name won't be enough in some cases. We could have one name shared by three Kordes roses, and they might all be floribundas, so I'd have to qualify them with the breeder's name, the class, and the year of introduction. Yuk!

What a pain, indeed! I am very impressed by all the work that you have done to create the amazing database; it is too bad that it can be confused by thoughtless rose-namers!

I know. Of all the nerve!

Zuzu ...

I think if you use the year of introduction as your qualifier, it would make your entry work go faster. I cannot think of a situation where two roses with the same name were introduced in the same year.

I have worked with lineage information for years and truly understand the scope of the task you have assigned to yourself.

As far as the system linking to other roses, I think that's more of an issue for Dave to look at as I know I don't understand it as well as the developer ...

You're right, Lyn. I'll use the year of introduction on the roses I don't want linked. There's no reason to involve Dave. The system is working perfectly. It's just that we're not supposed to have duplicate names in the database, but we all know that an exception had to be made for roses (and for daffodils, which also have no rules regarding names).

My life is crazier than usual, lately, Been out of touch from my rose friends.

I bought the Bolero floribunda this year. I was also confused by the names as seen by my posts in the plant files. I like it! Lots of flowers, fragrant beautiful. The light color glows in the garden! I like it whatever you call it! It is a compact, healthy shrub grown on its own roots!!! My kind of rose!

I bought another "romantic floribunda" according to the label that was a floribunda rose by Radler of the knockout fame (name is Orchid Masterpiece if I remember correctly). It is also a healthy little own root shrub, but I like the flowers on bolero much better. This is their first year. I will see how both survive the winter and look next spring!

I overwintered roses in pots against a wall by necessity. I moved all my roses - twice in a year- and didn't get them all in the ground. I put all of the pots together against the south wall of the garage. I threw some mothballs by each to keep hungry critters away (definitely not an organic gardening product, but I use them outside to keep critters from nesting in my covered roses.), blew heaps of leaves on top of them and hoped for the best. By the end of the winter the snow reached the roof of the garage along that wall. I had mixed results. Established roses covered in place in my garden overwinter MUCH better than potted roses for me! I had roses in pots by necessity not by choice

I wouldn't dig your roses up now! Listen to RoseBlush and take care of their roots - dont' bereak and stress them by yanking them out of the ground! I am already starting to cover the bases of my grafted roses - i.e the divas. I throw a couple of moth balls in the peat moss - you can skip that. I add a bit of peat moss at a time. (Experts who wrote cold weather rose gardening books said to wait until the ground freezes solid before covering the roses. However, I can get November snow that stays until May like last year. The heavy snowfall covered the roses that I didn't get a chance to cover (Ie, the Canadians and other non divas. They did fine) . I add more peat moss until I have a mound about a foot tall over each rose. You have to coordinate the winterizing with the leaf removal. Neighbors "helped" blow my leaves for me last fall and blew away my peat moss....plant labels....pots....Good Thing Winston the pug hurried inside or he would have flown to Kansas to visit Toto!

I think I solved that problem. I h\gave my most helpful neighbor a rose for his birthday! he bought a few more on his own. I am helping him winterize his roses as I winterize mine. The leaf blower will be aimed with care now! I am painting the names of my plants on rocks so that they don't' blow away. I am still playing who is who with my fancy hostas and a couple of roses - I'll figure it out eventually. I have rocks to paint this weekend as well.

My neighbor has a mulching mower - I have all garden in progress, no grass but a strip along the road! My goal is to have the peat moss in place this weekend and them cover the peat moss with mulched leaves as they are ready. You can buy mulch. I have more leaves than I know what to do with for free, guess what I use?I have a couple of pine trees that I want to cut the bottom branches. I waited until this time of year to cut them. I am going to lay the pine branches on top of the mulched leaves. I'll take pictures for posts or an article.

I have a note on tree leaves. I don't have any eastern black walnut trees growing in this neighborhood. Black Walnut trees release a chemical called juglone that inhibits and prevents growth of many kinds of plants. I used to live in area with many black walnut trees. I didn't use the leaves as mulch when I lived there.

Don't worry about deep snow cover if your winters have been as cold as mine have the past two years. Some meteorologist say that the El Nino Effect (probably misspelled, I am in denial that it is almost winter already) will bring another extra cold and snowy winter this year. The only bright point - when the snow is around 3-4' high the deer stay away from my yard.

Typically, my rose canes stay green as high as they are covered with peat moss or leaves or mulch.

If you have as bad a deer problem as I do, you will need to spray or treat the canes so that the deer don't eat them (Spray the exposed canes with whatever you use to keep the deer away during the summer. Since it will be snowing instead of raining, you won't have to respray often. )

In my old garden, I have wrapped my roses inverted tomato cages covered in muslin. It was necessary to both protect my roses and keep the area neat from windblown mulch.

All of my roses in the ground last fall survived the winter!

FIn my experience, hardy own root roses are more likely to survive the winter than grafted roses - in my zone 6a climate.
Grafted roses need extra care in winter protection to protect the graft! A rose garden of own root Austin, Kordes and other beautiful English, shrub, climbing or floribunda roses hardy to your zone (or preferably a zone below your zone) will be easier to maintain than a formal rose garden of grafted hybrid teas. The plants look more beautiful and healthy as well.

As yourself if you really want to invest the time , money and effort required to protect grafted roses before bringing the beauties home next spring!

I have a limited gardening budget. I try to invest in plants that will survive for years. I get really depressed when I see a rose that didn't survive the winter. I get very attached to my plants. Other people treat grafted roses like annuals and don't mind if they don't survive the winter.

I haven't bought any of the roses from the Canadian nurseries on multiflora stock. I have a wishlist, but haven't taken the plunge. Yet. All the grafted roses I have grown to date were grafted on standard Dr. Huey root stock. I bought my current grafted roses on sale at Home Depot and Lowes. I saved the pots and receipts to return the rose the following year if it didn't survive the winter. Frugal gardeners like me are more likely to take a chance on a diva plant if it has a 1-2 year return policy!

I have also had great success overwintering grocery store mini roses covered in peat moss and mulch in the ground! You can't beat 3-5 little roosted mini roses for $1.99 in a grocery store pot. I put them here and there in the front of my rose beds. I am still setting up gardens, but the mini roses earned their keep this summer!

I can chat/type roses with you all night, but I have things to do before sleep.....and Winston the pug wants a walk.

It's amazing how different zone 6 is in different parts of the country. It's 75 degrees here today and we're still mowing. Any leaves that do blow in get mowed. I grow my roses in full sun, meaning there are no trees around to drop leaves on them. When I mulch, it's with shredded tree limbs, and the way I do it is use the tractor to dump a whole bucketload on the rose bed, then rake to smooth it out. The rose beds are scattered over 10 acres, and hopefully I'll get 2 dump truck loads of mulch delivered and will use it all. We don't get much snow here, and when we do, it only lasts for a day or so. Our ground doesn't usually freeze until January, and some years not at all. We get low temperatures, below zero, but it isn't unusual to have temps in the 40s that same week. Or 60s. I'm mulching to keep the roses cold.
I don't use leaves as mulch because winter rain mats them down and it stinks. The big issue with hardiness here has more to do with wind rock, dry soil, and temperature fluctuations. My biggest issue is I have so many roses and so little time. And a knee that still hurts. And I'm working 60 hours a week now. Just not smart enough to stop adding more....
The roses I have purchased from Palatine have grown much better than the ones I have purchased other places that are on Huey or bare root. I don't know if they are just better varieties to begin with, (Kordes) or the fact that they came here with better roots, or what. Lyn, after thinking about it for a while, i think I will go ahead and dig out at least 1 of the one-cane wonders, do the experiment. So thanks for suggesting I try. I can keep it in the garage with the potted roses I'm hopefully getting from the rare rose auction in Carlsbad this weekend. My reasoning is, the one cane wonder isn't going to get better over the winter outdoors, and most likely will get worse. Indoors, it has a chance at regular water and protection. If it doesn't make it, then I learned something and I have a space for one of the new roses.
Palatine and the So Cali auction roses will come in November, and Edmunds, Regan, and WI Roses will get here in March and April. Some will go into pots, some in the ground. It all depends on how good they look when they get here, what our crazy weather is doing, and how capable I am physically.
From year to year, we never know if we are going to have an early cold snap or late, and how early it is going to warm up in the spring, how late the last freak freeze will be. By placing orders for delivery in November, March and April, hopefully I get a chance.
Our local Rose Society topic this month is winter protection. We cover this every year, then in the spring, we all compare notes on what worked, and which roses failed. We then compile a list of roses that did well for everyone. The club mainly grows HTs, organically, while I mainly grow floribundas, also organically. Our club sales have focused on hardier roses that can be grown organically, so it's a definite trend here.

Cindi, you're receiving your Palatine order this month? Last year I had them hold my order for spring delivery. Are you concerned they will sell out? I think they reserve your plants when you order.

Last year, I had ordered them for November delivery, and if you remember, the whole NE was snowed in for weeks. Palatine had to reschedule for spring delivery. Spring is tough here because we get early super warm days, then late freezes. Spring winds are worse than fall winds, too. Normally we have a long fall season, and roots can get settled in. If temps are still in the 70s when I get the roses on the 19th, then I'll hold off planting for a week or so, until it's cool enough that they won't be tempted to come out of dormancy. My own roses are still pushing buds. I'm guessing that Palatine harvested these roses a month ago and put them into coolers to force sleep, or do northern places really have that short a season?
I thought a long time about which was better, spring or winter planting of bare roots, and the experienced people in the local rose society said definitely better chances of success with fall planting of bare roots. Rachel at Palatine confirmed this too, after I described our continental climate.
Palatine gets credit card into when you order, and then charges about half as a deposit. The rest is charged when they ship. They reserve your plants even until spring. (Which is what Neal was saying, just explaining to people who may not have ordered from Palatine) I have changed my order twice so far, adding a few for friends. I placed my first order within an hour of the website opening this year to make sure they weren't sold out of what I wanted. It was crazy...I was at a hospital in Kansas City, waiting for my mom to come out of surgery, looking for a floor with better wifi. My list to buy was at home, and all I had was my phone, so I had to scroll through all their roses to try to remember what I was buying. My aunt was sitting with me and she was looking at the photos, thinking she wanted some too. I was trying to explain I had to hurry, hurry, hurry! before they sell out! and they've already been open for an hour!!! She just laughed at me, because our whole family has plant addiction.

Ah yes, you're a zone warmer than me, so that makes sense. I think I could successfully plant in fall here now that I think on it. I'd mound a bag of mulch over the top, but I'm pretty sure that would be plenty of protection. Hmmm....I'm tempted....

Cindi ...

I have held off writing this because I know you are an experienced rosarian and do believe there are a lot of right ways to grow roses, so what you have learned from the roses in your garden may be somewhat different from what I have learned growing roses in this garden.

From day one, I recognized that I was creating a rose garden in poor soil and would need to compensate for that. One of the decisions I made was never to plant any rose in the ground until it had a fully developed root system. Over time, I have become more and more convinced that this decision has had more do to with the success of having vigorous plants throughout the garden than anything else I have done to care for the plants over the years. In my garden it is the high temps of summer that cause the most stress for my roses.

I now believe that a plant with a good root system can handle the stresses Nature throws to the plant better than a plant that is developing the root system. In the long run, I think it makes for a stronger plant as it continues to mature.

A bare root plant has good anchor roots, but does not have the small feeder roots to supply both moisture and nutrients to the plant. It takes time for those roots to grow and start working to support the plant. More than a few weeks.

Last year I purchased a bare root rose in December and potted it up and over wintered it outside. We did have a warmer winter than usual, but I did have a plan to keep the pot from freezing, if the temps dropped to where the container might freeze.

I could have planted the rose out in spring, but chose to keep it in its container to allow the plant to develop more roots. We had a very hot summer and we do not get any rain in the summer months. The smoke from the fires this summer also created problems for all of the plants not only in my garden, but throughout the county.

When I planted that rose into the ground near the first of October, I didn't expect the heat spike that brought the day temps back up to the high 90s for a few weeks.

In early October, when I planted the rose in the ground, the plant had developed a full root system with feeder roots, so it was able to withstand the high temps with no problems. There was NO transplant shock and the rose behaved as if it had always been in the ground. I didn't even have to worry about watering it daily as is recommended for newly planted bare root roses. That rose was ready to go. The rose HAD grown roots to the point where it was almost at the point of going root bound.

If I could not have planted it this fall, I am certain it would have done fine until I could plant it.

With your November arrivals, based upon my experience, I would suggest you pot them up and let them grow their feeder roots and plant them out next fall. With your spring arrivals, I suggest you pot them up and carry them through the summer until next fall. Waiting until the rose grows a well developed root system seems to give it a leg up and gives it the ability to withstand stress better.

I was trained to observe plants differently than most people and see the roses and their performance differently. To me, I may no longer be a novice in the rose world I play in, but I am certainly not in the league of those who are far ahead of me in their knowledge of roses. There is always more to learn.

It's something to think about.

Lyn, I understand your point that roses need to develop a good root system to withstand future hardships, however, I don't understand why that works better in a pot - especially if the rose lives outside with all the in-ground roses and weathers the same conditions. Is it just because you are protecting it from your poor soil? Or is it so that you can whisk it into a protected area if the weather becomes too inhospitable? Cindi's roses certainly would not do well living in pots outside in her winters...Could you elaborate a little more, please?

PP ... you are right. I should have qualified what I wrote.

When I was growing my roses in San Diego, better known as Rose Heaven, I did have a container garden, but I had many friends who could grow their roses in the ground. I had noticed that when they planted the roses they grew in containers into the ground, those roses seemed to take off better and appeared to be stronger plants. However, the bare root plants planted directly into the ground in that climate caught up quickly. In San Diego, Mother Nature was very kind and did not give the plants much stress.

The post I wrote to Cindi was more of a response to her descriptions of how the climate in her garden impacted her roses. My garden in the mountains is a LOT less rose friendly than I had experienced in San Diego. So, I should have qualified that response to say, "When you are growing roses in a less than rose friendly climate .... "

Early on, I had to remove some roses from this garden simply because they did not do well in the high summer temps. I don't have the cold hardiness issues that those in colder zones may experience and never have to deal with roses that have winter die back. However, because of the heat, some roses go summer dormant.

When I removed some of those roses, I found that they really did not have a vigorous root system. Those roses were put into the ground with a smaller root mass than those of later years.

The conclusions I posted were arrived at by observing what is going on in my garden up here and other rose gardens of friends up here. At first, I was the only one who made sure to grow roots before planting. Some of my other friends up here experimented and they, too, found this practice gave their roses a better start in our climate.

I guess it truly depends upon where you are gardening as to whether or not you need to give the plant more time to grow roots.

Thanks, Lyn. I have noticed when a rose fails here, for no obvious reason like being dug up by a dog, it always has a puny root system. This is especially true of the body bag roses I have received (and sometimes still receive) as gifts. Would the poor waifs have done better in pots? I have good soil and a mild winter climate, but the summers are consistently hot and humid. I hate killing my plants for lack of early care. Once established my roses are expected to fend for themselves, and most of them do since they are predominantly old garden roses.

Very interesting Lyn! I hadn't thought of that technique, but totally makes sense. Especially considering your climactic challenges. Come to think of it, that is kind of how I treated some small own root plants I've purchased.

Generally speaking, roses appear to root well in the soil here. Its a moisture retentive clay loam with good humus content. Early spring direct planting is the only way I've ever treated a grafted plant and I'm now curious about planting in fall. Those Palatine plants are planted really deep to start with, so the roots would be growing some through the winter...wouldn't they? I'm confident I could protect them with a nice pile of mulch. Wondering if they would establish faster? Some years hot weather comes early, a healthy root system is certainly what they need do deal with it.

I placed my Palatine order today and November 23 was the first available ship date for fall, which concerns me as a bit too late with Thanksgiving week and possibly being delayed in planting. And sometimes we get cold weather around the first of December. I chickened out and listed March 17 for the ship date.

Which roses did you order, Neal?
Lyn, this summer I ordered roses on a great deal from Brecks. They arrived bare root with really nice roots. Since it was hot and windy, I did pot them in good potting soil in 10 gallon cans. I let most grow until fall, then planted. (Part of that decision had to do with my knee surgery and not being able to dig.) My reasoning was, I could leave them in the shade house out of the wind where I would water them daily if needed. Getting the watering right is a bit tricky, but bigger pots are easier than small ones, and I was going to be home to check on them daily. Grouping them together in the shade house made is easier, too. Luckily, we only had a few days over 100 this summer. I lost a few due to big rains in the heat and the pot not draining completely.
Normally I plant bare roots in my garden soil with compost added on top, then mulch. The soil here is at least 6 FEET deep before it becomes clay. It's a wonderful loam, really about perfect. The advantage of planting roses in the ground is the roots stay cooler in the summer, and moisture drains better. In a pot, even in the shade, those roots cook! If we get a good rain or someone overwaters, then literally, roses in pots can boil!
Nurseries around here don't like to carry roses past July because they suffer so badly in the pots, and that's 5 gallon pots, not small ones. Nurseries can't keep up with watering pots, and most summers, I can't either.
Are you thinking they'll do better in pots because they can be kept in the shade? Do they need to be root bound, like some house plants?
Now that I have the drip lines laid in the flower beds, it actually is easier to take care of the roses if they are in the ground. I can dig a 10-gallon sized hole in about 2 minutes, that's how nice my soil is. The shovel just sinks in. My first house had hard clay, and i realize how good this is. Did you ever watch "Victory Garden"? I used to laugh at that show, say they had dug all those beds ahead of time and added potting soil. Nope. That kind of black crumbly humusy soil does exist.
To find out whether it is better to pot for a year or grow in the ground, I would have to dig up a rose that was in the ground. I would also have to find someone to come water potted plants while I'm gone in the summer (if I do this next year.) I can see potting them and sheltering them until they leaf out in spring, and then planting in the ground, but I don't think I would do better by leaving them in the pot all summer, for reasons other than root development.
Another thing, I know I have whined about our weather conditions here, but actually I think you have a much more difficult situation in California. I'm a lazy gardener, and things still grow. I hardly ever irrigate, I never spray, rarely feed, have no moles, voles, or nematodes, and the deer have plenty of other things to munch on. Some years I don't even mulch. I've never found a rock in the soil, and blackspot is a minor issue. There are insects on my roses, but they don't seem to cause them any harm that I can see.

porkpal said:Thanks, Lyn. I have noticed when a rose fails here, for no obvious reason like being dug up by a dog, it always has a puny root system. This is especially true of the body bag roses I have received (and sometimes still receive) as gifts. Would the poor waifs have done better in pots? I have good soil and a mild winter climate, but the summers are consistently hot and humid. I hate killing my plants for lack of early care. Once established my roses are expected to fend for themselves, and most of them do since they are predominantly old garden roses.

Yes, especially for body bag roses, giving them the time to grow a good root system sets them up to be more solid plants. The roots of body bag roses have been butchered to fit the packaging. Even in a kind climate, letting a body bag rose develop a solid root mass before planting it in good soil, sets it up to recover and then fend for itself.

Now, I understand your question of "Why" about growing the roses in a container. Growing the rose in a container until it has had time to grow a solid root mass give you more control. You manage the moisture and nutrients it needs to recover from the trauma of having its root butchered and when you put it in the ground, it is already a solid plant.

I feel the same way about bands. I know people disagree with me on this, but I think this practice ups my odds of having a viable plant I don't have to baby once I plant it out.

Smiles,
Lyn

Cindi ...

You know your climate and soil better than I do and you know what works for you in that climate.

I don't have any shade on the house pad level and prefer to do no container gardening up here. However, because I do not have loamy soil, I have to make sure anything I plant has been set up for success.

All of the roses I have planted up here were allowed to grow roots in the summer with temps in the triple digits for months at a time. You are right that in that kind of heat, the soil in the ground is cooler. However, I have never had a plant suffer from boiling in the container. I know it happens to a lot of people, but I think that has more to do with the type of container used than the heat.

There is another variable ... I live in a climate that has hot, dry heat with no summer rain. The amount of water that goes into the pot during the period a rose is in the container is determined by me and not by Nature.

You can't lump all of California gardening together. The climates simply vary too much all through the state. My climate is very different from Zuzu's and Suzanne's in that I don't get the ocean influence. My climate is more arid. I have a shorter growing season and more variables, but we are all growing roses in California.

>>>I know I have whined about our weather conditions here, but actually I think you have a much more difficult situation in California. I'm a lazy gardener, and things still grow. I hardly ever irrigate, I never spray, rarely feed, have no moles, voles, or nematodes, and the deer have plenty of other things to munch on. Some years I don't even mulch. I've never found a rock in the soil, and blackspot is a minor issue. There are insects on my roses, but they don't seem to cause them any harm that I can see.

I am a lazy gardener, too. That's why I make sure my plants are solid before I plant them in the ground.

I do have to water my roses weekly during the summer months, but many people up here feel like they have to water more often. I have perfect drainage and the clay in my soil holds moisture, but with the drought, my drainage has changed, so I had to change how I mulched and how I watered.

I do feed my roses because I am gardening in soil that was totally dead when I started. It's much better now, but it is still not sufficiently fertile to provide for the needs of the plants.

I do have moles, but they really don't impact the roses like gophers do as they don't eat the roots. I just stomp the feeding tunnels down and the roses keep on keeping on.

I have lots and lots of rocks in my garden and when I started, I couldn't dig a rose hole with a pick. Now, I can use a shovel and digging rose holes is no problem. I have a no-till garden and the soil improvement has happened over time with the various mulch materials I've used.

Black spot isn't a problem after temps hit 85F. A balanced, no spray garden will rarely have a serious insect infestation. My one exception is the rose curculios. With my shorter growing season, I don't want them breeding in my garden, so I am pretty aggressive about dis-budding the garden when they are above ground.

There are a lot of right ways to grow roses. If what you are doing works for you, then you've got it right for your climate and soil and other variables. If I tried to follow your gardening practices, I would end up with a lot of dead roses ... We do what works.

Smiles,
Lyn

This discussion gives me more appreciation for both my climate that I complain about and what rose lovers do to enjoy our favorite flower! Solid methods in one climate are counter intuitive in another, but one thing is for sure, we're gonna figure out how to have some pretty roses in our gardens one way or another- we're a tenacious lot! LOL

Cindi, I listed my order on the November chat thread- I'm over the top excited for spring!